h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

first of all, this is a GREAT conversation thread. somehow, someway, SOMEone has to stimulate a child's imagination and give them the tools and willingness to learn how to learn. that's the one big thing i had to discover in going from junior high, to high school, and to college. if you can figure out ways to learn what you haveta learn (which is everything) then any road you ride, any bus you take can be a part of yourSELF, instead of following somebody else's trail.

I should clarfity what I meant by

"Dont take any (expletive deleted) from anyone."

Put a bit more eloquently it means, do not allow people to be abusive to you, resist those who are abusive toward you by any and all means possible, if you fail to resist them the problem will get progressively worse.

I was pointing out that as adults it is easy for us to forget how school society works, it is largely the rule of the jungle. Too often we make the mistake of assuming that the bully is reasonable, that he will leave his victim alone if they do their best to avoid him, and do not aggravate him. This is wrong. It is wrong because typically will react to avoidance or a lack of resistance by escalating their abuse. The justify this by telling themselves that someone who puts up no resistance is pathetic and deserves what they get (they are wrong, but this is how they think).

This is why putting up whatever form of resistance is possible (usually not physical resistance) is the only real solution that a child can put into action themselves. This is what I wanted to stress.

an excellent point, nosbod, there becomes a time when passive resistance must be backed up by a larger form of passive resistance in order to effect change/equality/equilibrium.
wow! you folks are bringing out some of the big words i hardly ever use! cool! way cool! thanks!

I agree, to a point. I was homeschooled throughout my elementary school years (reading this thread, I'm thinking I was very lucky), so maybe I know less about this than some other people. The kids I played with tended to read books a lot.

But even now, in high school, there is bullying. Mainly intimidation rather than physical harm, but it's still bullying. And adults do tend to put the problem in their terms, rather than the child's terms. Bullies are not reasonable, logical creatures, for the most case. If you avoid them, they don't leave you alone, they hunt you down and increase the torture (be it physical or psychological). You have to make yourself a difficult target, by speaking up against them and making it very clear that you aren't going to take the crap they're throwing at you.

Of course, sometimes this just gets you in worse trouble.

Of cource, this doesn't say what you SHOULD tell your child to do about bullying. True, "Hit them back" or "Don't take any *$&# from anyone" isn't likely to help, but having teachers intervene just gets them hit again later when the teacher isn't there. I was bullied as a child, and now my daughter is getting picked on, and I don't know what to tell her that will help.

Support her. go to the school - don't take the we don't have bullying here reply. If you are unsatisfied with the school's approach, find out from your daughter which child it is - find out who picks the child up. Approach them after they have dropped the child off and say - "Have the school approached you about your child bullying my daughter ?" The way they respond to that will tell you a great deal about if the problem is child or parent related.

repeating myself, this is a GREAT thread. back 30 years ago, i was better friends with my friends' parents than my own, and my friends the same way. one buddy in the back yard with my dad, one in the kitchen with mom, one poking around upstairs checking my cassette tapes as i was bibbity-bopping from up to down to back.
bullying IS NOT genetic, it is hereditary (where you come from) and the way MY generation has gone thru multiple marriages makes it all the more important to give a kid a solid base, a rock, an example about how to have fun and DON'T HURT OTHERS!
i try pieces of Zen, and TM and yoga to make these two acres overlooking the Great Lake Erie as a safe place, and try and reinforce that trust i place in THEIR hands...give 'em enough rope, and pull the noose as needed. if they know the noose it there... bob dylan sang 'don't think twice, it's alright' AS LONG AS YOU THINK FIRST. thinking being the primary word.

"True, "Hit them back" or "Don't take any *$&# from anyone" isn't likely to help"

I totally disagree. I was bullied in a very good public school system in the USA because I was very skinny, I looked like a monkey (big ears), and I had huge front teeth. I hit back, I didn't take crap, and I was able to be fairly happy in school. Bullies would start with me, but it was so much trouble (even though I got some SEVERE beatings), they eventually gave up and showed some respect.

This was due to good family support and my dad and one of my sisters teaching me how to defend myself (physically).

I have a friend who did not have that kind of support. He was bullied so badly that he dropped out of school, despite being one of the smartest people I know (and I know a few PhDs).

Yes, of course, make it *difficult* for bullies to get at you (by fighting back, being assertive, etc.) but revenge is never a good idea. Directly attacking someone (verbally or physically) without provocation, even a bully, is never called for.

The problem is that in today's school system, kids like me are punished just as severely for fighting back.

When you're getting pushed around, you can't discuss the issue or reason things out. Many people who weren't bullied don't realize this. You have to fight sometimes.

I would stand behind my child if he/she were suspended or expelled for self-defense.

Exactly. A few weeks ago at my school, there was a fight. It was between a really dumb, egotistical jock (who, incidentally, feels the need to assert his power constantly), and one of my friends, who is sort of skinny and doesn't like conflict. The jock attacked my friend, for supposedly making a comment about his sexual preference. My friend landed a couple of blows in an attempt to protect himself.

They were both suspended for a week. How fair does that sound to you?

Sounds like your teachers and administrators can't tell the difference between a bully and someone with a a littel backbone.

The problem is that the teachers/administrators are too spineless themselves to point out the bullying behavior, because they lack the courage to stand up to the bully's parents. They're taking the easy way out. And frankly, I think a kid who stands up for himself probably scares them, because they couldn't do it.

Tell your skinny friend I told him to keep up the fight. One day, he'll be out of school and all these mommy-wannabe teachers won't be around, and he'll need that kind of courage. He's already proven he's got more than most of the so-called adults who are supposed to be teaching him about life.

*grrr*

Thanks. Our teachers and administrators are a bunch of bureaucrats. They saw two kids fighting, and did what they were told to. It didn't matter to them that they *also* saw the events leading up to the fight, namely, a kid being bullied. I swear, I cannot STAND the bureaucrat mindset.

Like any large group of people the 'quality' of teachers is variable, but I think you'll find a lot of the time they're treading a very fine legal line when dealing with bullying. In particular, look at the background of bullies from problem families - they often have social workers in tow impressing on them what rights they have and teachers can lose their jobs if these rights aren't played out to the letter. Trouble is, as noted, these 'rights' end up best known by the bullies in many cases, rather than the victims of the bullying, which means they're not benefiting the children they're being targeted at. Worse, the laws are flawed to an extent that many bullies know they can get away with all manner of misbehaviour, which leads to huge problems when a teacher tries to punish a bully and the bully turns round and says 'you can't do that' because the teacher knows the bully is right!

In this environment the ways teachers can deal with problem children are severely restricted and with illogical laws you end up with teachers making what seem like illogical decisions, because if they didn't they'd run the risk of losing their job.

Hmmm.


Sounds like the people trying to protect the bully's rights have forgotten that good, consistent discipline has been shown to be beneficial for such purposes.

Idiocy.

The teachers do what they can. But after the kid's been through detention or in-school suspention (I still don't quite get that one...), they'll just beat her up for 'getting them in trouble'. Pointing out that they got themselves into trouble isn't a great way to keep all of your teeth, and she's not really up to fighting back. Not only are the bullies bigger than her, they have more friends.