h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi again Nirvana

>but I just think some of the solutions you're offering are a bit fantastic

I disagree, obviously, and I think I've explained why.

>how do you define "bully"?

I believe I have defined the word bully in two separate posts.

>not to mention that school is NOT the only environment in which students encounter each other).

I think I addressed that too. You can't solve every problem obviously, but we can at least protect the victims.

You're certainly entitled to disagree with me, but I think I have addressed most of the issues you have raised. I don't claim this method could solve all the problems, nobody can do that, but it would protect the innocents - and I think that is a worthwhile goal.

Thanks for the input - and yes sometimes I do take myself a bit too seriously.

Cheers

Thanks for the reply.

>I think though we're heading off on a circular track.

I would agree with that!

>How would they 'learn to behave like a decent person' when separated from the normal environment?

I would simply ask in return, how would they learn to behave like a decent person when they are allowed to continue to cause (sometimes permanent) harm to other children when it pleases them, with no real repercussions? How does placing them in a classroom with well behaved children and then allowing them to dominate those children teach them that what they are doing is wrong? Allowing bullies to mix freely with other children is not working, that is very clear. It is time to try a completely different approach.

In addition, I have already answered this question in several different ways by stating that not only would we isolate the bullies, we would give them access to all the teaching and resources we could to rehabilitate them. In other words, they would be getting all the education and positive reinforcement possible as well as the negative reinforcement essential to protecting their victims - and in the meantime they would not be allowed to continue to attack others.

We cannot fix bullies. If we could, we already would. Maybe we will be able to in years to come. Right now, while we are searching for ways to stop the behaviour, we need to stop them hurting their victims. This is a point I have made many times - if I may quote from my previous post:

"It seems you would rather sympathise with the attacker than the victim. I, on the other hand, feel that nobody deserves to live in dread, especially a child. I cannot fix the problems of bullies home lives, or I would, and I say that with my hand on my heart. I cannot understand all the reasons why they become bullies, nobody can at this stage, despite extensive studies. If we knew what controlled their aggressive impulses, we would change them if that were possible. Additionally, not all bullies are created equal - some are just thugs who enjoy causing pain, some have been taught to cause pain, some are suffering from abuse. We cannot even come close to eliminating all those problems, although of course we have to continue trying."

These are not just words to me. If I thought we could fix bullies without isolating them, I would be happy to go with that approach.

>We are obviously using different definitions of bullying. In our school, 'one or two incidents of playground teasing' could be considered bullying

Yes we certainly are.

>and it is important to stamp out antisocial behaviour before it becomes entrenched.

At my son's school teasing and naughty behaviour is immediately dealt with, using time outs, quiet chairs and meetings with parents and so on. Naughty behaviour which may lead to bullying is not left unaddressed.

However, that is not bullying, that is normal - if unpleasant - childhood behaviour, and while it needs to be controlled and channelled it is not an issue deserving of isolation from other children. I have never said that was the case. I have already quoted from both the Oxford Australian Dictionary and my son's school charter - they both clearly define bullying.

Here are another couple of quotations to define bullying:

"Definition of bullying "Persistent, offensive, abusive, intimidating or insulting behaviour, abuse of power or unfair penal sanctions which makes the recipient feel upset, threatened, humiliated or vulnerable, which undermines their self-confidence and which may cause them to suffer stress"
MSF Union, 1994

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, bully."
"Bullying is a compulsive need to displace aggression and is achieved by the expression of inadequacy (social, personal, interpersonal, behavioural, professional) by projection of that inadequacy onto others through control and subjugation (criticism, exclusion, isolation etc). Bullying is sustained by abdication of responsibility (denial, counter-accusation, pretence of victimhood) and perpetuated by a climate of fear, ignorance, indifference, silence, denial, disbelief, deception, evasion of accountability, tolerance and reward (eg promotion) for the bully."
Tim Field, 1999

There are websites all over the internet, and if you type in to your search engine the words "Definition of bullying", I do not believe you will find, anywhere, the words "A bully is one who is responsible for one or two incidents of playground teasing."

These people are not going to follow through any measures, including your suggestions.

No, but their opinions or lack of interest would no longer be allowed determine the fate of the victims, because once a bully was identified, they would be removed from the proximity of their victim and dealt with by much more educated and interested officials and teachers.

>Any school which claims to have no bullying has its head in the sand. Bullying goes on everywhere, what is important is to try and address it before it gets out of hand.

I agree entirely. I do not believe I have said anything to the contrary. Therefore, it is clear that the current methods are simply not working.

>I am interested that you mention bullying of adults because of course that does take place, adult=adult and child=adult. Some workplaces have good procedures in place to address this, some don't. It can happen anywhere in society. This is why we need to educate both potential bullies & victims as well as everyone else, how to get along together in society.

I completely agree. But in the meantime, while we are fighting our way through the mire of trying to re-educate bullies, victims are being attacked every single day. It is unacceptable to say that we might have a solution for bullying in x number of years and meantime the victims must simply put up with being attacked. Adults already have systems in place by which they can legally defend themselves. Adults also have adult reasoning skills and can deal with what is happening to them on an adult level. I only mentioned adult bullying to try to give you an insight into what some children go through every day.

Children have only us to protect them. And they deserve that protection.

Regards

Sorry Nirvana, I should have qualified what I said with "could protect the innocents/victims in the school environment".

I'm feeling some hostility here . . . I probably deserve it, though. I just think that most of the ideas you're tossing around here would *never* be implemented in public schools, for various reasons that include cost. While a noble and plausible idea, I think it would just cost too much to create seperate classes for a specific group of identified bullies, and keep them out of contact with regular children. Besides the fact that this would just invite lawsuits from the bullies' parents (who, on the whole, tend to be just as vicious as their children).

I'm not criticizing what you say, I just don't think that it would ever be used. It would be great if public schools were open-minded and funded enough to do something like the plans you have been suggesting, but they just aren't (at least not here in the USA).

There's my $0.02, anyway.

Hello again Nirvana, no I really wasn't trying to be hostile (though some of my friends might say that's my natural frame of mind!) I think that I tend to be a bit clinical when it comes to debating/arguing. I read everything and pick the points apart and if I feel I've already said something, I don't always want to repeat it - it is more a style of debate than anything fueled by hostility. This medium does not allow much tone to come across unfortunately, and sometimes I come across as more aggressive or colder than I would if you were talking to me face to face (at least I hope so...)

Actually, I am quite glad you came along and made me realise I was busy stuffing my head up my arse, as I occasionally do when talking about something which is important to me.

Extracts head from arse - there I can breathe better now...

>I'm not criticizing what you say, I just don't think that it would ever be used. It would be great if public schools were open-minded and funded enough to do something like the plans you have been suggesting, but they just aren't (at least not here in the USA).

Yes, I do see your point. However I believe that if something is right (and I do believe my idea to protect victims from bullies is) it should be pursued relentlessly regardless of people squawking about funding (like the government couldn't pull funding from their own pockets or one of the millions of redundant projects close to their own little hearts) and trying to bring law suits. I get very tired of the bleeding hearts telling us why we can't do things (and I do not consider you a bleeding heart just btw...). If you don't shout long and hard about things that are important to you, the p.c. and bleeding heart contingent will just keep sailing along unopposed. I think, if something is right, do it. Lack of money and opposition by the parents of the attackers is not an acceptable excuse.

Saying that of course, I haven't the faintest effing idea of where I'd start to implement this proposal. I just know that if I were in charge of the universe, things would be a whole lot different, heheheh....

Best Regards

It also occurs to me that calling you Jessie might be more appropriate, for some reason Nirvana was the one word I focused on and it stuck in what I laughingly call my mind these days....

Oh well....ciao for now Jessie (Nirvana)...