h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oh, yeah, plenty of us think that (I hope!). After all, Bush's father knew it wasn't wise to try to remove Saddam (during the '91 Persian Gulf War), so he didn't attempt it. In fact, I've been wondering what Poppy thinks about what his son is saying.

BTW, the govt. has just announced that we are in a heightened state of alert here because of "credible new terrorist threats" in connection with the 9-11 anniversary. Eek! I am sitting in my office two blocks from the White House!

As I understand it, George W has less IQ than his father.

I remember being in Birmingham while the IRA pub bombings were going on. I knew a student who lost part of an ear in one, although I didn't know any of those who were killed. Not pleasant.

*sends peaceful thoughts*

When will we be bombing Ireland?

And Big Red, and any other Americans reading, have a safe, calm and reflective day tomorrow. Or today. Ah, you know what I mean.

Greetings everyone,

Wow, I am amazed that the conversation in this thread is still going so strong...and most of the arguments made are well-thought-through. Seems that there is not so much difference between the thought-pattern and the feelings of us on this side of the ocean and y'all over yonder * hey this is a poor attempt to make a joke*
As I said earlier I have lived in the US for a while and have met some really fantastic people, have seen magnificent nature, and have prayed with my American friends on 9/11, have wept with them and sat in horror. I too have asked myself again and again, how anybody could even consider an horrendous act like that...but is the bombing of a pub, bombing schoolbusses and cars,bombing marketsquares and so on less horrendous? No it is not, yet In Europe we have lived with it since forever. Don't get me wrong I still feel for the families, for the friends and coworkers of all the victims, but I can also see things from a further perspective and see them for what they are.
The point has already been made: the foreign policies of the US and I am referring especially to the Middle East policies, or the lack there off, have been a thorn in the side of most of the Middle East countries. It just is no longer enough to say:"Because we want it like this"...
No country should be able to force their will down the throat of another country,; the statement: who is not with us is against us, is therefor ridiculous. The political will to prevent terrorist acts like 9/11 is there in every nation, only attacking Iraq as a "token war" to prevent people from realising that in one year nothing has really changed is even more ridiculous.
I would strongly support the option of a diplomatic solution to the conflict with Iraq, if possible the UN and its chairman Koffé Annan could play a very important role.
I know what I am about to say sounds cold and is not really popular, but however horrible the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were, imagine to have to live in Bagdad, and having a load of bombs with the same effect being dropped on your head day after day, night after night...because the government of a nation on the other side of the globe would rather not tell their citizens that since 9/11 Nothing has changed....I can not believe that the people I have met in the US would really go for that...actually I am quite sure they wouldn't, just as little as most people here in Europe would go for it...despite Tony Blair's actions...

On that note,
Walk in Light,
Star*

Thank you Mr. T! It's a bit scary in D.C. right now because today they ratcheted up the security warnings, saying there is a credible threat of terrorist attack tomorrow. And I'll be sitting in my office two blocks from the White House. Gulp. (P.S. I *must* check out your marmite essay.)

Hello again,
Well it would seem that I have to clarify a wee bit about what I posted earlier.
I, in and of myself, do not beleive that trained liars could ever be honest. Which is to say that while there is still one lawer, politician, or used car sales man, the world will not be free from deciet. On that same note, I am not a half-crazed conspiracy theororist either. I would have disregarded the "Iron Mountain clause" if I had read it after 2001, more specifically after September 11th. I read it in 1994. To watch this develop, is a scary thought. As far as my understanding of terrorism goes, it is an action designed for the purpose of inciting terror. As was said in an earlier post "One can fight a group of terrorists, but not terrorism." No matter how high alerts are set, the people seem to forget that the terrorists who hit the twin towers were inside the US for up to 10 years.
Ironic that theres a hieghtened state of alert declared by the government. I do not beleive that the government of the US is telling the whole truth. But then the best liars never do, always mingling little lies with broad truths.
No I dont beleive all Americans to be Gun-totin, cowboy Bill supremesist right-wingers. I just think that the good people get drowned out by money and influence. And to be quite honest, I know what its like pissing in the wind, so to speak. The single voice does get drowned out.
Sad but true.
Yes I was called a traitor for moving, but then considering the source... It was an individual who could not grasp the concept of living somewhere other than the US. Personally, I like it here in Europe, and my Dutch has greatly improved. So to be frank, there is no harm done.
Unfortunately, it seems that the states is following a policy of creating criminals and then punishing them for what they are. For instance, the average gang started out to defend themselves, thier families, and thier homes. In the end, they all get caught and go to jail. Unfortunately it almost never stays this way. The point is that the American police are powerless to help a person until after the fact. What they can do is punish you for defending yourself, your property and the lives of your loved ones. It is sad.
all I am saying is that the system has been broken for a very long time and needs to be renewed.
No one does not have to think like me or even act like me. In discussing Rights and Responsibilities, bear in mind that I do have a darker and more cynical view than most, and all these factors play in the back of my mind.
As far as actual war goes, maybe the US will come out ok, I dont know, but I do know that it is going to be a lot of needless bloodshed. Regardless, if the US tries to take on the Muslim World then the worst parts (most likely) in the bible. (famous movie qoute guess which one)
Perhaps it is time for each American to take responsibility for allowing the system to get so far out of control.
anyhow, me brains are slowly turning to sludge s it is very late.
Be well All
Northguardian

star,
I think that if people whould just talk to each other, without thinking about nationality, religion, or any of that other garbage cluttering up their minds, we'd find that we all want pretty much the same things. Food, shelter, safety, and companionship. I guess that is one of the attractions of the internet--you don't have to worry about those things unless you choose to.

Northgaurdian,
Some of us still here in the states are trying to take responsibility and make changes--and working on getting others to do the same. Too few at present, but growing slowly. Pray we have time to grow enough.

Everybody take care tomorrow--and all the days after.

Greetings,

Dear Sithkael, I couldn't agree more! I am sure that if we all sweep in front of our own door and take care of our own little problems before they grow into a mountain, if we can all stand long enough next to ourselves to see that the person next door has the same worries and problems, if we extend hands accross borders, nations, ocean and religions: we , as humanity, have a chance of making things better,.... of surviving.

I will this day 9/11/02 add my prayers and thoughts to those from all over the world, remembering and honouring those who lost their lives, those who lost a familymember, a friend, a co-worker.
May they, may we all walk in light.

Brightest Blessings /|Star*

Proud to be an American and old enough to know what that means. Thanks to Big Red for some good comments. I live far from the damage of 9/11 and will probably not visit any of those places for at least another year. I have friends who are immigrants, resident alien's and of course many who are natural born citizens like myself. I am basically of northern european extraction (mostly British Isles). I did not vote for our current president as most did not. He won by manipulating the courts. But that said he is the sitting president and what he does is seen by the rest of the world as representing all of us. Not fair but that is the way it is. I don't think we should attack Iraq to fight terrorism, but I don't have any reliable facts to base a decision on. I try to check out non American news but, face it we don't have the corner on propaganda or media manipulation.

I do think Al Qaida needs to be reigned in but don't know if the current method is likely to work. Ossama Bin Laden represents a very different culture, one diametrically opposed to American values. We rely on capitalism for our economy and it works very well for us. We are blessed with a huge country with many resources, which not only makes us inately powerful but also the target of a good deal of jealousy. We also alow our people to behave according to their own consciences as long as it doesn't disrupt others beyond legal boundaries. Women can marry, divorce, raise children at will and both men and women must individually prove them selves worthy if they expect to find a mate. No religious control sanctioned by the state. This is very threatening to the conservative faction of Islam so we became a target. We use far to much of the world's limited rescources. I personally wish our country as a whole did more to recognize the value of Johanesburg summit on climate. If Mr. Gore were president as he was duely elected maybe he would have attended. Personally I think Mr. Bush is devaluing himself with his petty childish temper tamtrums, and oafish inabilty to get one sentance out without stumbling over the words.

That said I think there is a danger abroad in both allies and enemy thinking they know America by the media they watch or read. I went to college in the 60's with foreign students who frequently made fun of the foolish gullible Americans. Today I work with a young lady from the UK who thinks that middle America is stupid for the most part. America is a large country and unless a foreigner spends years in dozens of places really getting to know all the people in that area he/she is likely to miss interperet the strength and purpose of this country. I worry more about the misconception of our strength lulling terrorist into thinking they can destabilize us with harrassment. I dislike Israel using us as a shield for her own attacks on her neighbors. I find it irritating that some think this is not a Christian nation. We are a very giving people and if and when that changes some of our worst enemies will discover that we are a formidible foe. Japan made the mistake in 1941. I think our atomic attack was dreadful but it ended the conflict. Just like any teenager (the age of the US compaired to some of the countries around the world makes us very adolescent in may ways) we may seem sleepy, frivilous and not to aware of what is going on at times, but don't get us to upset because teenagers generally over react. Even though I am against the current expanding war on terror if another terrorist attack occurred I would support retaliation completely.

Hi EggsER. You've made some good points there.

It's so easy to broad-brush categorise people and I've met people who think middle Americans are stupid. From there you're into stereotypes and oops! there go your brains. Stereotyping means you don't have to think any more.

I do think, though that the effect of America's policies on the rest of the world have a lot to do with the way she is seen by a lot of (especially) third world countries. Countries, who for instance, have to throw away or burn their crops, as they are hit by subsidies for American farmers and tarrifs on their own crops.

Zarquon's Fish - Stereotyping - That's why h2g2 is so good, you can say what you think and meet people without any preconcieved ideas, very useful, especially at a time like this.

EggsER - You make some really good points. "Osama Bin Laden represents a very different culture, one diametrically opposed to American values" is true, but it is interesting to note that while we may *think* we in the West have the right idea, we must *respect* those ideas and traditions of other cultures. I support the rights of women etc. on the whole, but I also respect other traditions. If we want to bring these towards what we see as a more modern, "right" way of thinking, we have to show that we are not "infidels" by our actions.

Greetings all,

Yes, some very interesting points have been raised and it is very clear that inherently everyone thinks more or less the same way: we love our respective countries or nations, not because of what they can do to others, but because of what they can do WITH others.

I think I have made it already clear that I am against an attack on Iraq at this point in time, and would rather see all diplomatic resources used to their limits; one reason being that starting, or continuing hostilities with Iraq to hide the fact that as far as Al Quada goes, nothing has been solved is ridiculous.Besides, would you not want to see prove beyong doubt that Iraq and Al Quada do have links with eachother? Links beyond "Islam" that is.

I read a paper of a Filosophy professor on the use of the "religion" as a major factor for war, and I think she made so really valuable points. According to her study there is a very simple reason why the Islamic religion would lend itself much more than any other for the mis-use of its doctrines.
Most of the Western world has a more or less similar filosophical or religious background. Also culture and the values for the life of the citizens of the Western states are more or less the same. South-America, as a whole, follows those values and the religious background and as far a Africa goes, let's face it, most of the African states have been colonies for longer or shorter periods of time and the majority of the nations in Africa have adopted and integrated the Western ways. The Islamic nations however have a system of religion (and political values) which is completely different from the Western model. If a citizen of those nations wants something different than the system they live in, they have no alternatives (not like we do with freedom of religion, freedom of speech, of the press and so on). If they are miscontent, envious of what they see other nations within another system can and will achieve, the logical step is to become even more fanatic about their own ways...The one thing which binds people more than anything else is their filosophy or religion, and is therefor the one thing easiest abused and used to unite them...to convince them to give up their life.
I couldn't help but agree with most of the findings of this professor. I have travelled through quite a few Islamic nations and have never been treated nicer, have never seen a greater hospitality than while I was there. I know for a fact that the people I met there have the same feeling of sadness and horror about the vicious attacks and they do realise that their religion has been brutally mis-used.
I can also assure everyone that these people do not see the Western World or Christianity as the "empire of evil"; although Christanity (in the past) has done its best to leave less than a favourable impression on their nations...(but then members of my own filosophical path have been on the receiving end as well, so no discrimination there...)

It fills me with hope that sales on books about Islam have gone up a lot since last year; that can only mean that after the initial shock of being attacked in such a way in the name of a religion we really don't know all that much about, the general population WANTS to find out more, wants to understand...I would say that this is at least a very promissing start to a better understanding.

As far as labelling an entire group or nation based on partial knowledge goes: I am not in the habit of doing that; first off: it would be wrong, secondly: I have lived for 23 years in Germany in NATO army-barraks amongst American,Canadian,French,Dutch,British and Belgian families and grew up in their homes as much as in my own...if that has taught me anything then it is not to "label".

Walk in Light
/|
Star*

I take your point and mostly agree with you, but playing Devil's Advocate, shouldn't we be looking at what we have in common? We punish theft and murder, all have one head and two arms, all have the capacity to love and hate, laugh and cry, all understand the pain of the people who lost their loved ones a year ago and all don't want a war - except Mr. Bush that is...

Bambi said,"all understand the pain of the people who lost their loved ones a year ago and all don't want a war."

Except that, unfortunately is not true. People who have been subjected to to much violence when they are young do not have the ability to empathize with another's pain, the same is true of some concervative branches of religions (all religions) that brainwash their members to the point of making "thinking" anathama. One of my biggest problems with my own country is that inspite of the fact that we have the one of the highest standards of living we are producing to many people who do not think, they react. I believe that cultural diversity is what makes our country strong but the 9/11 attack has created a fear of people who are different. My son-in-law thinks immigrants are dangerous to our culture. He has a technical school education and is capable of thinking but fear is shutting his mind. Even though we talk of friends that are immigrants he continues to distrust people who are to different. I am saddened by what I see happening here. Hopefully it will slow down and those of us that know better will keep cross cultural sharing alive, but it is not easy to encourage this kind of thing with the threat of "Sleeper" terrorists being a known threat. My husband who is more left wingish than I am (we are both pretty middle of the road) like to wear a T shirt that says "Vote Republican, it is easier than thinking". I grew up in a concervative Republican house but I find most of their attitudes very selfish now. We do have a responsibility to the rest of the world. We should not be paying almost nothing for gasoline for our cars when people in European countries pay 3-5 times as much per gallon at times. I don't trust Marxism ect either because we have already seen that those governments can be full of selfish greedy people too. It is going to be tough all over for several years to come I think.

"I don't trust Marxism ect either because we have already seen that those governments can be full of selfish greedy people too. It is going to be tough all over for several years to come I think."

It comes down once again to the corrupting nature of power, or the fact that power draws the corrupt... or those who are most susceptible to greed and corruption. Although I'm not about to suggest a worldwide system of anarchy would solve all our problems.

What I really hate about wars, and I know this has already been pointed out many times before, is that it's almost always civillians who end up taking the brunt of it, especially with this penchant for air strikes. And then when the innocents die, we are provided with a statement of regret by whoever accidentally blew them up, and if it wasn't an accident they're just mentioned as collatoral damage (sp?) not PEOPLE. Although I was... well pleased isn't the right word... glad to see footage and proper attention given to that wedding that was bombed. I think the media have been picking up on the true, messy results of war with these recent campaigns, which is good, although all the more disturbing.

And I guess this is what it comes down to: innocent people get killed in wars. That's what happens. And as long as we think of them as beloning to 'enemy' nations, we can accept it as neccessary. As soon as you take away their nationality, and after all that's just which patch of land they're stuck on, you're left with more dead people.

There's a cheering thought to end the post with.

Hello again,
Uhm theres a couple of points here I would like to make. Capitalism does work, most of the World is capatalistic. But in order for it to work well, it must be tempered by responsibility. Oddly enough taking care of people. Stronger social values. So in a sense, Capitalism tempered by socialism would be an ideal government. Now before you all start screaming "COMMY!!!!" at me I would like to extrapolate on my point of view.
I was in the Army, I explained that in an earlier post. I did a "Hardship Tour" in Bosnia. That is to say 13 months. And spent 1 year in traction. I fought, I bled, and my scars are not just "skin-deep", and a part of me died there (I wonder if it was the better part). So I would like to think that in 27 years, 24 of which spent in the United States, I know a wee bit about being American. Anyhow, after the Army, the only job I could find was to be a lowly Security Guard. Newport Beach, California. Beautiful place, my job was to keep the bums out of the trash cans. I firmly beleive that a person should enjoy certain benifits from working, and especially work that requires great skill and education. I also firmly beleive that what is the use of excesses of money, or possessions if one cannot share it with the less fortunate.
I think the same is true of governments. What is the use of being a "Super-power" in an age where any little country can get miffed and nuke one of your cities? Certainly its not to threaten others. Be aware that many little "pocket" countries have nuclear and biological weapons. So raw size no longer matters, as conventional war slowly becomes a thing of the past. Eggs, remember Vietnam? Conventional warfare did not work there.
In the past, every philosophy and religion has been abused to get people to fight a war the people did not see any sense in. That is a direct result of a lack of education. In WWII, the Catholic church spoke openly against Russia and communism in Germany, as well as supported the Nazi party. Outside of Germany, the Catholic church openly opposed the Nazi party. So in short that is nothing new, even in the current era. Alas we are simply a barbaric predatory animal with opposable thumbs.
IF a person really wanted to make a difference, it would be take Afganistan, hold it, develop and educate it, and then slowly back away. You have then created not only an ally, but also won over the people. That is the key right there, win the people equates directly to winning the war. Do not change thier everyday life by putting the boot in thier neck. Merely change the government.
Perhaps it is because I have travelled, that I CAN judge the spirit that governs men. Retaliation only equals revenge. "From a word to a word I was led to a word, from a deed to another deed". The eye for an eye thing only causes a lot of people to walk around blind, or half-blind. Think about it.
Bambi, Hate to disagree with you, but I beleive that the world will be richer if we could learn to celebrate our differences rather than condemn them.
Star, I beleive that sometimes an outside viewpoint is necessecary, and nine months is quite a bit of time, enough time to also be able to judge the spirit that governs men.
Uhm for those not in the know, I am an Asatruar, and I have used a couple of quotes from the Havamal. "No better burden than wisdom; Only one who has travelled can best Judge the spirit that governs men..."
You see, even in my own structure I can find 100 examples as to why war should be fought. But I can also find 200 as to why not to fight them.
Teflon Tony, and Pretzel already attacked Iraq before they were pleading for public support. We heard it on the Belgian radio, so we clicked on the beeb, guess what, it wasnt there or on CNN. No corner on propaganda? GOOD GODS ALMIGHTY!!! talk about half blind? Look around, for the first time open your eyes to what you dont want to see. Again the best liars mingle them with truths.
Anyhow I better get going before I make some inflamatory remark somewhere and be judged via internet for not saying what everybody likes. Hmm, will have to think about that last statement, censorship, if one says something you dont like, shut him up. See I never let a little thing stop me from thinking and speaking my mind, I dont force anyone to listen, so dont try to shut me up, simple.
As for people taking responsibility, I doubt it, unless its a monthly check or something. See taking out your own trash actually takes work, and its not fast or easy, so therefore not convienient. The typical American attitude is "if it aint easy, then it aint worth doin..." that and "Keep your credit card handy..."
Well oops, again offending remarks, perhaps I am just bitter...
Be Well, Keep your heads down, and dont become the puppets of madmen.
Nathaniel Ash
A.K.A.
Northguardian

Northgaurdian,

On the whole I have to say I agree with the points you have made. I actually proposed the same thing for Afghanistan when somebody (quite sarcasticly mind you) asked what I thought we should do instead of going to war. You are no more bitter my friends and I are, from what I can tell.


I can only hope that humaity as a whole comes to realize that every action we take affects every other person and thing on this planet in some way, and what happens to them affects us. If we do not think of the consequences before we act we harm not only others but, in the long run ourselves.

, This has got very serious!

OK, Northgardian first, since he made a short comment in my direction. Yes, we should celebrate our differences, but we can only do that together. In order to be together, we need to communicate and unfortunately, if someone is different, we only communicate in a negative way. Think about the kids who get bullied at school - the one with glasses, the fat kid, the thin kid, the really smart kid. It's human nature, by putting down someone else, you are making yourself more secure - reducing the chance of being picked on yourself. So by pointing out the things we have in common, we encourage people to talk. Only *then* can we celebrate our differences.

And Eggs...

You are right of course. I think the problem in the States though, is that the media and the government have hyped this in a bad way. We have the same problem in Britain with assylum seekers - we cannot possibly support all the people who want to come here, but it's not until you see an asylum seeker talk and tell you what has happened to him, that you say of course he should come here, why not? And then you say what about all the others? For this reason I think, it is very rare that you hear asyum seekers talk on television - it is easier to demonise someone you can't empathise with. Anyhow I'm heading off topic...

So the long and the short of it is we don't need Republican-ism, Marx-ism, Social-ism, etc. we need Nice-ism. We need to encourage people to be nice to each other - unfortunately it's not that easy.