h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The tapes were seen by several people whom I trust implicitly, including a professor of mine who's specialty is nationalism in the Middle East. He met bin Laden about 8 years ago, and insists that the man in the video is indeed him, and that no one not a native of his region of Saudi Arabia would have the same accent. Also, it's hard to fake that certain shade of yellow tinge that late stage kidney failure patients have.

The problem with your argument that emphatically denying responsiblity would have saved innocent Aghanis is twofold --1) bin Laden cares nothing for the people of Afghanistan per se, only his version of Islam and creating an Islamic, Arabic uprising that would create a pan-Arabic, Taliban-islam state, and 2) that as nasty as this sounds, there was no way the US was going to be passive about this assault. Think about the only other time anything like this has happened on US soil...Pearl Harbor. And within 1 year, we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There's something in the American psyche that will tolerate, if not agree with, attacks on Americans on foreign soil, but the US is somehow inviolate, and if that is breached, we *will* go hunting for you. After all, the Taliban brutalized thousands upon thousands of women in Aghanistan for YEARS and the US government did nothing except to pipe up every once in a while with "hey, that's not nice." When Flight 103 went down over Scotland, we were firm on insisting that the bombers be brought to justice, but we didn't invade Libya....are you following me here? What I guess I am saying is that there was enough evidence from the beginning to suspect Al-Qaeda.

Now, do I think that that foreign policy is right? Not necessarily. However, what's done is done, and while you can decry US involvement in Chilean politics, the fact is that the US is dealing with the fallout the British started when it created Afghanistan, further compounded by the Soviets in the 1980s, and even more screwed up by our funding of the Taliban against the "red menace."

Also, the videos seen as of late were never meant to be seen by anyone outside of Al-Qaeda.

Okay, enough pontificating.

I don't take that as pontificating - I've learned alot from this conversation - thanks.

I do question whether the Soviets compounded the Afghanistan problems before the US went in - in the 70s and 80s Afghanistan had a government committed to bringing the country into the 20th century including giving women equal rights. Washington deliberately increased the probability of a costly Soviet invasion by supporting the Mujahadeen (spelling?!) groups.

I agree with what was said. At one level I feel Sept 11 was meant to happen. If not for any other reason just to awaken the US to the atrocities committed by these very terrorist in other parts of the world. The US has ignored the words of those who were suffering and befriended those that caused the absolute agony to many innocents around the world. It was only when it happened at home, close to the heart, that US finally woke up. It remains to be seen if the awakening was accompanied by some kind of enlightenment though.

Okay, here's the thing. The Afghan communists found themselves in power almost by accident. Seeing as they were, in fact, committed to bringing the country up to speed, they decided they needed help. They got it from the Soviets, who spent most of the next decade fighting their version of Vietnam. By that, I mean the VAST majority of the people didn't WANT to be modern...in fact, the last government to try it, back in the mid 1960's, had been kicked out of power very quickly. Not only that, they were fighting a very slippery enemy, who had boltholes in every village, etc.

Now, Ronald Reagan, who was president, didn't have a very good grasp on reality, and saw the Soviet assistance to the Aghan government as a continuation of Vietnam....think McCarthy and the Red Menace here. So he ponies up a lot of money and weapons for the mujahadeen (the best thing about Arabic words is that their roman alphabet translations are so fluid!), who are in two camps, the north and the south. These two groups are split along ethnic lines, Pushtu and Tajik. The enemy of your enemy is your friend....for a while. But then there was this group in Pakistan of exiled intellectuals, who called themselves the Taliban (which means students), and since they were not inside Aghanistan, they were easier to fund, arm, and train. If bin Laden is good at hiding, it is because the US government taught him how to do it.

Meanwhile, back in Kabul, the only city under direct communist control, the government was letting the Soviet army do all the fighting. Then came Gorbachev and glasnost, and suddenly, the Soviets weren't so keen on keeping up a costly losing battle. So they left the Aghani government to its own devices, packed up and went home. Lo and behold, 8 weeks later, the communists were out of power, and the Taliban were in.

That's how the Soviets muddled the mix, well, the Soviets and Ronald Reagan.

What you have to appreciate here is that the Afghan people NEVER wanted to be industrial, 20th century people. They liked their traditional village life, herding sheep and fighting with the guys on the other side of the hill. Like a lot of places, western intervention just added more deadly ways of killing eachother.

Whew!

Hmm the bit about what the Afghans wanted seems a bit simplistic. They probably wanted the things you say, plus television, radio, medical care, education and the right to kick the sheep herding thing into touch and grow poppys instead. (Because it's the only way left to feed families unfortunately)I'm more inclined to think that the 'people' don't have much say in the matter. I've got a feeling that the females of the nation would rather do without all that testosterone war thing too.
I mean where can an Afghani man get a 'good' career in that country that doesn't involve killing?
There is an Afghani womans site on the internet, that tells me some of this, that they want a better life under Islam and they must count for a percentage of the population never given much choice.

Okay, you're right. I was simplifying a bit when I said that the people didn't want progress. What I should have said is the headmen in the villages and their attendant mullahs didn't want it. Which basically means they wanted to keep what little power they had.

But I do take exception to the TV part. Not everyone cares to watch tv. And actually, before the communists came along, part of the now-exiled king's agenda was to gradually integrate women into mainstream society. Before he was ousted, he actually began programs for women in medicine, although they were not allowed to practice on men (which is why they went into ob/gyn).

What woman wouldn't want to do without the whole testosterone war thing? But then again, look at Thatcher, and Shrub's Condoleeza Rice. Heck, Janet Reno. Some women thrive on conflict, just as some men are actually very good at "feminine" cooperation. And I am sure that there are some women in Afghanistan who will never give up the burqa simply because that is all they've ever known, and the unfamilar is frightening.

But the women, and men, who live in the rural areas of Afghanistan are, by and large, a traditional, conservative folk. Much like the ranchers I knew in Eastern Montana. God, country, and gender inequality are what they know, and they'll stick with it.

You're right, not everyone wants to watch TV. Some people think they might want to , until they get one! .
The message usually is "you can buy all this stuff." which creates wants for freedom and luxury items.

Yes the female of the species can be quite vicious when they imagine their 'kittens' are under attack. See fighting woman in history. Threatened with invasion or invaders?
Bodicia got better press than Thatcher but the thought behind the action was similar.
Standing up for their 'babies' (perhaps misguidedly) or sending them off to terrorise others first?

Yes some Afghan woman will cling (just like my mum loves her jog pants) to what they have always worn others won't. It's about choice.

Actually, as I remember Al-Quaeda were one of the many terrorist organisations to quickly deny their invlovment (but I could be wrong, because as I said, many organisations did).
Once it became quite clear that the US was going to blame them, they obviously figured they might as well take the credit (it would be easy to make those 'planning' videos after the events. I'm not saying Osama & co weren't responsible, merely that I'm not certain they were.
Anf yes, the US does seem to react violently to attacks on its soil, possibly because they're so rare. This 'war on terror' however, only seems to be concerned with the terrorist the US is interested in, I have not yet heard any condemnstio of the IRA or ETA for example.

Ya know, I too think it is very strange that the US government has stayed completely mum on the topic of terrorism within Europe... you'd think they would at least have the IRA on the radar. Isn't there a domestic terrorist group in France as well? And what about the neo-Nazis in Germany?

And why doesn't anyone think that more than one government a year (on average) in Italy is a threat to the stability of the area?

In the UK 9/11/02 would read 11/9/02.

... which is more sensible, moving from smallest unit (day) to largest unit (year) rather than a less organised system...

What I've understood about the planning is, that it was much more complex than most of us thought in the first day's after. You'd think that any idiot with a knife could do it. Not so, as we know now and the final day was mainly put in the hands of those that had to do it.
They were very dependent of flights of planes which were full-loaded with fuell (intercontinental)and weather conditions were important too, to name a few.

It doesn't seem right to hijack the date for own political reasons.


Greatings from quiet Amsterdam, Alfredo

Unfortunately I think it has been all too easy to hijack a plane with a knife and others to help. It seems to me the most time would have been spent - learning to fly a plane.

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