h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I don't like it when I take my son to the park, and all the parents sit around in the play areas smoking and throwing butts on the ground for babies to pick up and put in their mouths, and to make the place look nasty. It's not a good example to the kids.

In fact, until smokers can learn to not break the law everytime they chuck their butt on the floor, it should be banned in ALL public places. When it's windy they blow all over the place, into cars, into shops and houses, I'm always finding them in my garden! And they take 10 years to biodegrade. And that doesn't include the cellophane or the packet.

"... Our best course of action may be maintaining a low profile while working to exempt cigarettes from coverage of pending litter control legislation ...
Recommendation ... the concept of courtesy should be limited to the smoking of -- rather than the disposal of -- tobacco products."

--Tobacco Institute Memo, 1979

Bah. I can't say what I think about that nasty little comment (old though it is) and the companies that are happy to let people give themselves cancer while encouraging people to make the planet look as bad as possible.

It also makes office buildings look nasty, as all the workers hang around outside getting in the way of the doors like prostitutes gathering around a red light.

And that's not to mention the fire hazard. Not so much in this country, but others.

If our kids and teenagers don't see older people smoking, maybe they won't want to take up the habit.

I didn't mean that to end up as a rant, but I can't help myself.
Is it anti-smoking enough for everyone?

I do so totally agree with everything you have said Mina, so I won't type it all again!! It's a dirty, smelly, unsociable habit and should, in my oppinion, be banned completely. I have never smoked and my son-in-law goes nuts if people smoke around his children. It's also such a time waster, many hours of work time are lost, while people stand outside with a fag!!

I am a singer/songwriter/musician and I am the musical director of the local pantomime. One of the artistes who is singing a solo came off the stage after singing and immediately lit up a cigaret!! I couldn't help myself, I ticked her off! Smoking also ruins the singing voice, I told her. You won't find any serious singer smoking!

It makes me really angry....

Pinkie

I don't understand why smoking is even legal. The smoke pollutes the air, the butts pollute the earth, it causes health problems for smokers and those around them (driving up health insurance rates in the process), and kills people.

As for smoking in restaurants, I once read a quote that said something like "Having a smoking section and a non-smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing end and a non-peeing end in a swimming pool." In other words, separating the smokers from the non-smokers does little good because the smoke drifts all around. I don't think smoking should be allowed in public places, if it's allowed at all.

Before I start, let me just say that I am a smoker.

I agree about no smoking round kids. I have 2, and I don't like it(smoking round them that is, not the having kids bit!) I smoke at my back door.

I also never smoke in restaurants, coz it's not nice when people are eating. I smoke in my car, but not with the kids in it.

I've been told that my hubby-to-be's ex used to smoke whilst feeding the baby. Ewwwwwwww

I like to think of myself as sort of a considerate smoker. And yes, I would like to quit....and have tried many times. Maybe one day I'll manage it! I'm not giving up on giving up!!!

Well I am not going to rant either, I was a smoker but gave up over 2 months ago and have now realised what it smells like to non smokers, it is pretty disgusting.

I never smoked around my son and visitors had to join me in the garden to smoke. As for public places I agree that indoors it should be banned but outdoors I feel that if the councils/authorities provided propper facilities in parks etc most smokers would use them and smokers have rights too.

As for smoking causing cancer I have to disagree, it isn't a cause for all cancers, you can argue with me on that if you want but my great gran, gran and aunt have died of cancer and 2 out of the 3 had never smoked in their lives. I wish people would stop saying it is the cause of cancer, cancer comes in many forms and is caused by many factors and in my family it is hereditory, passed down in the genes, yes smoking can aggrevate it which is why I gave up, but it isn't always the cause.

Good luck in giving up Mist, keep trying you will get there if you want to do it enough.

I was a heavy smoker until I finally managed to quit some 3 years ago. I much prefer to be in a smoke-free environment now, but I'm not preachy - if somebody visits my house and wants to light up (which doesn't often happen) I'll find them an ashtray. And open a window.

One thing that always used to make me want to smoke even more was people telling me that it's a dirty habit and bad for my health, (or other people's health for that matter). I'm not stupid - I KNEW that.

But when I was 16 and thought I was immortal, and when smoking was a lot less socially unacceptable (I smoked a pipe at university - when did you last see one of them?) I didn't fully appreciate that - and by the time I did I was addicted.

This is the point - nicotine is a highly addictive substance. Giving up is not easy - I tried a number of times before I finally succeeded, and all the ex-smokers I know (which is most of the people I know) report the same.

Actually, I used to quite like places I wasn't allowed to smoke - if it was actively forbidden I found it much easier to resist the cravings. But telling smokers that it is unhealthy or unexpensive simply doesn't work - they aren't doing it because they don't understand the danger, they're doing it because they are addicts.

I think myself that smoking in indoor public spaces should be banned - outdoors there should be designated areas. If it was banned everywhere people would just defy the ban.

Mistdancer - I speak as someone who once lit up whilst wearing a nicotine patch and chewing a piece of nicotine gum - I found by far the easiest way to stop is with the inhalers. I tried and failed many times, but it was far less difficult when I had something I could suck that provided a genuine nicotine hit - it is the nearest thing to smoking besides smoking. If you decied to go for it again and you want any moral support feel free to drop by my space.

Ah, for God's sake, why don't you all go round to everyone whose habits you don't approve of and prod them and call them "disgusting". THe amount of prejudice and lack of decency people will show when they've been told it's "allowed" always appalls me.

People have a right to smoke and do what they want to their own bodies. If you don't like it, tough

Zagreb,

I totally disagree with you, it's attitudes like that that start trouble!

If all smokers were sensible about where and when they smoked and thought of others around them maybe the non smokers wouldn't get so angry about it. Smoking around people who have asthma or breathing problems can be very serious.

Enough said, but just think before you crack stupid comments.

Speaking as an asthmatic non-smoker, but primarily as someone thinking first of himself, when I say, "Hey, that's my air you're cancering up!" I'm a libertarian (there's a Guide Entry on this) and I believe every one has the right to live their own life how they want to, BUT that they have no buisness interfering with other peoples lives, and I need that air!

Hiya,

I am a heavy smoker living in France, a country where smoking is part of the restaurant experience! I can understand that non-smokers feel that they are being *forced* to put up with smoke in air that they feel is *theirs*, and I can also understand that nobody wants their kids breathing in billowing clouds in their own homes or playing in a butt-pit instead of a sand-pit at the local park.

On the other hand, I think the claim of *freedom from* is a weak one, for the reason Lady stated his/herself: If you are free to live as you wish, you are free to smoke where you wish. Positive and Negative Freedom. If I am 100% free, I am free to murder people I don't like. However, I am also free *not* to be murdered, and so are people I don't like! We all agree that murder is right out, because it suits 99.9% of the population 99.9% of the time.

I don't go around the place murdering people and I don't deliberately bother people who I can see don't like ciggy smoke. I do, however, feel I am behaving reasonably when I light up a fag in town and sit on a bench and smoke it. I don't think I am infringing on other people's *inalienable rights* by doing so. Unfortunately, we all rely on other people to be 'sensible', but have differing ideas on what being 'sensible' entails.

An interesting example where I would say the roles change: sometimes I am in a pub/bar, the smoker's paradise par excellence (unless you're in Holland!) and someone in the bar tries to make it clear that they disapprove of my smoking near them. People even bring their young children in and then appear dismayed when someone nearby lights up! Under such circumstances I feel that the non-smoker is on shaky ground as it is no secret that unless specifically stated, bars will tend to be smoke-filled.

This occasionally also applies to smoking carriages on trains. I was once subjected to disapproving glances, communicative coughing and exaggerated evasive head-movements all the way from Strasbourg-Paris, despite being in the smoking car. The train wasn't full and I really wondered whether my suffering neighbour realised that the train was not *all* smoking.

I avoid non-smoking coffee-shops (in England, not the whacky Dutch type!) because I like a fag with my coffee. These days, I quite often have to search around to find somewhere where I can get decent coffee *and* have a fag with it. Must remember to write to T. Blair about that.

I also agree that there are few suitable places to dispose of a cig butt in most towns. I usually aim for a drain on the basis that at least that way it goes the way of all street litter as well as being unlikely to cause a fire.

Another good point was the fact that few smokers are totally ignorant of the downsides to their addiction - many fully understand the futile stupidity of it. Stating these sensible reasons not to smoke doesn't stop many people, though.

I don't really know what else to say, so have a good debate, and don't get *too* !

Seeya
Spiff
*lights up a Benny and settles down to re-read post*

I'll just jot down some thoughts that sprung to mind when reading this thread (and the others). I'm not going to say that they will make sense, I just felt like submitting them.

One thing I've found since I came to Scotland, is that almost all of the buses in the country have "no smoking" signs posted all over, and still, in a lot of cases, the passengers doesn't care. They still sit theer, with their cigs, totally ignoring the signs that asks them not to smoke. I've even seen the bus drivers in some buses smoking at the wheel, while driving in these buses. What kind of mesage does that send out to the public?
Same thing in taxis. many are the times I've got into a taxi, just to find the taxi driver, puffing away on a cigarette, not even bothering to ask if it's bothering me as a passenger. Sure, I can ask him to put it out, but should I really have to?

Also, living in a very culturally diverse place (most of IBM's Tech Support and Switch boards are located here, with a lot of people from different countries) I've found soem major differences in approach to smoking. For instance, Scandinavians will, in most cases, ask if it's okay to smoke inside before lighting up, while southern European people are more prone to just get a cig out and start puffing away, assuming it's okay for them to do so.
Of course, this is not always the case as there are exceptions to all rules, but it's what I've noticed after being here for nearly three years.
I've also found that there's a difference in attitude when the people that has started smoking indoors without having asked if it's okay first is asked to smoke outside instead, or put the cigarette out. The Northern Europeans seem to accept that more than the southern Europeans, for some reason.
Maybe it's because I'm a non-smoker that I notice these things, I don't know.

Personally, I'd like a society where smoking in public places (and I'm talking about indoors) was banned totally, but I know that that isn't going to happen.
I will not start ranting about how bad smoking is for you, or that it causes certain types of cancers (I didn't say that it causes all kinds of cancers, LotL) because I know that my opinion will matter little, if at all, to a smoker.

Mina, as you've been a taxi driver, btw, how would you confront a passenger that started smoking in your car?

Lady,

Ok, fair point, my last posting was a bit uppity.

I agree about smoking restrictions in confined places (eg buses). I also think restaurants should have non-smoking sections. Banning smoking in pubs is a bit pointless, if you care about your health, why drink? I totally disagree, however, with a ban on smoking in public, open, places. I think it's lunacy and hysteria. In cities where the air is already clogged with unhealthy fumes, the idea that only cigarette smoke is causing anyone any problems is ridiculous.

And I have a *major* problem when people mouth off about smokers being "disgusting" or it being a "filthy habit". That's an attitude that taps into an ugly part of human-nature and I don't like it.

I stopped smoking a year & a half ago. I went to my local library and got out a book called "Allen Carr's Easy Way to Stop Smoking" (can I put that in? I don't think it's advertising). I read the book one afternoon and haven't smoked since, with no bad cravings or anything. I feel so much better for it. And I have noticed now how bad people smell when they smoke.

But people smoking despite No Smoking signs - that always used to wind me up! I'd look at them and think "I can manage to wait, why can't they" and I always (and still do) get the urge to whip the fag out of their mouth and crush it! But of course I don't.

I think no smoking in any public building, but it's ok outside in an open space (not a small outside confined space which is pretty much the same as inside). And all public litter bins should have an ashtray on the top - obviously fag butts can't just be thrown into litter bins, that would be silly and dangerous.

I do sympathise with smokers - I always felt like public enemy no 1, and I was always very considerate about when and where I smoked. But quitting is the best thing I ever did (my mum & stepdad agree, they both stopped by the same method).

Charlie

If smokers have a right to smoke then I have a right to breath without choking.
I have a right to not suffer asthma attacks
I have a right to meet my friends in pubs without having asthma attacks
I have a right to goto a restaurant, and be able to smell and taste my food, oh and without having an asthma attack
I have a right to go to h2g2 meets without spending the next 3 days coughing and chesty.
I have a right to live without constantly having to go to hospital
I have a right to not have to constantly loss friends because I cannot go to where they go
I have a right to go to nightclubs without having breathing problems for a week afterwards
I have a right not to smell other people, and not to have to cough at their stench.
I have a right to consider anyone who wishes to smoke in my presence, knowing that I have asthma, as someone who wants to hurt me.
I have the right to report such people to the police, as assaulting me.

Hi Charlie, thanks for the name of the book, sounds interesting. Good to hear some sense from the smokers' side; there *is* such a thing as a 'considerate' smoker.

Hi Kaz,

Sorry to hear that smokers are causing you so much trouble , but I'm afraid I don't really agree with you about your 'rights'. In any case, you start out the list with :

>>If smokers have a right to smoke then I have a right to breath without choking.

- Well, I don't see how this makes sense, but in any case, the legitimacy of all of the following 'rights' rests on the equal legitimacy of others' right to smoke. That makes things a bit awkward.

>>I have a right to not suffer asthma attacks

- You do? Where does that come from then? Do I have the 'right' not to catch colds? Should winter be banned for my benefit? Is cigarette smoke regarded to be the sole cause of asthma attacks?

>>I have a right to meet my friends in pubs without having asthma attacks

- I am sincerely sorry about your asthma, but should everyone adapt their lives according to your needs?

>>I have a right to goto a restaurant, and be able to smell and taste my food, oh and without having an asthma attack

- I'm with you here for the most part, but I think a lot of UK restaurants cater better for non-smokers than smokers. I fully accept the 'peeing end/non-peeing end' analogy (, I will remember that one), and I try not to go over the top in restaurants, especially if there are clearly non-smokers nearby. Nonetheless, I am a smoker and one of my favourite cigs of any day is after a good meal. I hope I never find this impossible. I can cope with the idea that *some* restaurants are completely non-smoking, but *all*?


>>I have a right to go to h2g2 meets without spending the next 3 days coughing and chesty.

- Wasn't there so I don't know, but do you just demand that any party be non-smoking for your benefit?

>>I have a right to live without constantly having to go to hospital

- This is a strange one. Is unwanted tobacco smoke really the sole reason for you making regular trips to the hospital?

>>I have a right to not have to constantly loss friends because I cannot go to where they go

- So in order to be your friend, it is obligatory to give up smoking?

>>I have a right to go to nightclubs without having breathing problems for a week afterwards

- Open your own nightclub, if you don't like the ones that exist. They are not actually there for your benefit alone, you know. We all have to share these places; many people particularly enjoy smoking while drinking booze! Ever heard one of those 'giving-up' discussions between smokers and they say 'Well, during the day I can get by without having one at all, but with a pint...'

>>I have a right not to smell other people, and not to have to cough at their stench.

- cheers for that. Very sound, objective comment. I'll take that onboard.

>>I have a right to consider anyone who wishes to smoke in my presence, knowing that I have asthma, as someone who wants to hurt me.

- Er, ok then

I have the right to report such people to the police, as assaulting me.

- Yep, I see.


You may have realised that overall I didn't like your post too much. I am not a pro-smoking activist or anything. I quite understand that people are disturbed by it and I *do* think that some controls on when and where it is permissible to smoke *are* in order. It's a question of compromise.

Despite starting out as you did, you don't seem to take into account the concept of negative and positive liberty at all. Just 'I have the right' over and over. I'm afraid I didn't much like your way of communicating your point of view, I suppose. Sorry about that.

Seeya
Spiff

I can understand no smoking areas and banning smoking in public buildings and transport. However as an ex-smoker it annoys me when people moan about smoking in the open air. I have heard many people say I'm asthmatic and allergic, but the amount of smoke produced by cigarretes is nothing compared to that pumped out by traffic on the streets, yet not many people are getting at anti-social car drivers for triggering asthma attacks.

Phew rant over

But yes, smoking is a horrible habit, but remember people who smoke are addicted to a powerful drug (more addictive than heroin) so give 'em a break, they are not trying to p**s you off.

I guess what i'm trying to say is we all have anti-social habits and must tolerate each other to some extent

P.S. Has anyone done a discussion about chewing gum and spitting it on the street?

I totally agree with Kaz. I don't suffer from Asthma half as much as Kaz and even I have, in some cases, tremendous problems. I went to a club with friends and spent the following week with nasty problems. Every time I coughed, which was often at that point, it started something like a severe itch, deep in my chest and then a coughing fit followed. The thing is, I don't smoke.

The smoking issue isn't so much a matter of rights but one of pollution. If someones life was at risk due to radiation pollution then they would go straight to the legal courts and would be backed to the hilt. People would not expect to have to put up with such a serious problem. With your point about the traffic, I agree with that too, the pollution the traffic puts out is apalling. I am a biker myself and ride in London. Buses!!

Smoking has been conclusively proved to cause a large number of fatal diseases. It's not the nicotine that causes problems it's the other thirty odd products of combustion that are really nasty, such as particulates and Carbon Monoxide. These are all in the smoke that the smoker breathes out. This to me is a serious problem.

Yes, according to current laws, the smoker has the legal right to compromise their health, but they do not have any right to compromise mine or Kaz's. Life is difficult enough. If you want a quick blast on a cigarette then why not smoke outside? Much of the problem is that smoking is usually done in confined spaces such as pubs and meeting halls. This really compounds the problem.

I don't think our request is unreasonable. What do you say?

Zagreb,
'...And I have a *major* problem when people mouth off about smokers being "disgusting" or it being a "filthy habit"...'

Well, tough. It's only words. It's not as if you're in the middle of a bus queue when the person upwind of you lights up and gives you the "choice" of breathing in their disgusting toxic emanations, or moving away and losing your place in the queue. Smoking is a filthy habit, and while the smokers themselves may not be "disgusting", the filth they force others to breathe is.

Before you start "rationalising" that smoke in the streets is no more unhealthy than engine exhausts, I'd like to point out that my objections are not on health grounds, but rather that the smell of tobacco sickens me to the stomach, and simply walking through a smoker's "plume" in the street is enough to make my eyes sore and irritable. I am not the only person affected this way, and I don't see why smokers should get away with this sort of casual assult scot-free.

Peet, I see you dont object to smoke outside, on the street, on health grounds, but, because it annoys you and makes you feel sick.

That is not good enough! many, many, things annoy me and make me sick but I dont want to accuse them of casual assult. e.g (this is a silly example but I hope the point comes across)walking next to people who have bad BO annoys me, but I dont want to force them to wash, that would be wrong.

Untill smoking is made illegal (which I do not advocate) it is wrong to call it a "casual assult", if it annoys you so much,deal with it poeople have been annoying each other since we stood on two legs (and probably before that!)

At this point in time, I'd like to direct your attention to a product that has been used in Sweden for a very long time. It's called 'Snus', and is a type of tobacco, that does not cause any fumes, smoke or in other ways irritate anyone but the person using it.
It works like this: 'Snus' is, as I said, a tobacco product that is used orally. However, the nicotine is not absorbed in the lungs, but rather by the dental gums as you tuck some of the 'snus' under your lip and leave it there. Usually, the nicotine kick lasts between half an hour to an hour (according to a friend of mine who uses it). After that time, you dispose of the 'snus' much in the same way you dispose of a used chewing gum. The problem with 'snus' is that it's illegal to sell in any EU country but Sweden, and it tastes vile.
The good thing is that there are no direct links to 'snus' causing any type of cancer, unlike cigarettes (no matter how much smokers want to rationalise away the fact that smoking does cause certain types of cancer), and it give the user a nicotine kick that is similar, or often surpasses the kick you get from smoking. Also, only the user is exposed to the effects of it.

Come to think of it, it's almost like a version of Chewing tobacco.