h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Here in the NZ youth scene, there are very few goths but a lot of wannabees. Prhaps the most horrifying experience of my life was sitting on the ground somewere, at midnight, drinking vodka and coke with about ten goths and wannabees, their faces black and riddled with holes, vodka leaking out of their peircings, and me the only person not entirly dressed in black.
After that event I gave up youth socalisng and drink forever.

I only Knoe one real goth, an old friend, Who is gothic, she claims, because of her hard and very sad life, Except nothing overly bad has ever happend to her, and whatever bad has happened to here was brought on herself. She is totally melodramatic.

When I think of goth, these two anecdodes come to mind.

Well you're obviously mixing with the wrong Goths! Not all of us enjoy sitting on wet grass in a park (in fact,I find it ruins the clothes!) so really you should only do it if it's your idea of fun. Personally I don't find the idea of getting wankered AND having a cold arse very enticing.
Also having problems in one's life is not the only reason people become Goth. Quite recently my life has sucked beyond imagination but I fell in with a bunch of Goths at Uni a few years before that and it was like coming home. The reasons why I enjoyed the things that I did finally fell into place - having come from a very small conservative town I didn't know any Goths at all before then. Some people may be Goth for the reasons you said but Goth is these things and more - it's a whole lifestyle that many people do follow for a myriad of different reasons.

goth is a state of mind, we put that frist,then the look.

tea?,cake?

Yeah.....right...

what do you mean!?

Define the goth 'state of mind'. I dress like a classical gothic deppressiod nowdays anyway......Because I have manic-deppression.

i stole the state of mind thing from someone else.im shallow

Anyone with a real "goth state of mind" dosn't survive past 17 or 18 years. Like a friend of mine.

I'm not really a goth. I gave up dressing in black, because I was relying on it.

sneakey ninja.'ay? or hey?

"... dosn't survive past 17 or 18 years."

I beg to differ on that subject. My goth peer group is well past 18 ... mostly past 30, too. And most of them have been "goth" for more than a decade. Thus I don't think a goth state of mind limits your life expectency.


Tube

I dunno....most of the goths I know have attempted suicide before. Usually they survive but, one guy didn't, man it was a weird funeral. Black-spike clad pallbearers and heavy metal music. Really. Also, they played this Evernesence song and now I always cry when I hear it.

well this is a rather depressing conversation....

but you know... just because you are goth or you look goth or yu ohave a real "goth state of mind" doesnt mean that you cant be happy sometimes. besides the fact that everyone's mind is different. so there cant be only one true right "goth state of mind". otherwise there could pnly ever be one true goth.... what a predicament

by the way... i'm shallow too. i stole that but about still being happy from the thread nextdoor....

Sorry about this slow posting, I tried to post it last week but hootoo died, and I've only just remembered:

Pinky, you make a lot of claims which you seem out of your depth on. You may want to hold back on those generalisations in future.

For example, your first statement here: "Here in the NZ youth scene, there are very few goths but a lot of wannabees." I'm not convinced that you would really know; since you're not the kind of person to associate with a huge number of 'true' goths. From your intro: "Life has always been good to Pinky...he's a dramatically happy person to be around, almost always grinning and cheerful." I don't imagine many of your friends are goths, either. But they are there. I could name perhaps a dozen 'true goths' in your city, and I not only don't live there but also never visit, so there's got to be more there that I haven't met.

The people you shared your last drinking session with sound to me as if they're very young. Apart from the fact they were drinking vodka and coke, their piercings were fresh enough to still be leaking, and also they were drinking alcohol with fresh piercings, so that would make them, what, 16? Am I right? Bear in mind that people tend to take a while to settle into their social niche; a lot of goth 'wannabees' quite often decide to drift elsewhere, meanwhile the stigma associated in your mind still remains.

And melodramaticism aside, there are many people who have genuinely had a very bad and very hard life. NZ has one of the highest rates of depression in the world, one of the highest rates of teen suicide, and have (last I heard but things might have changed since) a higher rate of violent crime per head of population than New York city was /at it's worst/. I've spoken to tourists who have asked why almost every New Zealander they see is dressed in black. There are goths there dude, you just don't see them.

"Anyone with a real 'goth state of mind' doesn't survive past 17 or 18..." again, dude, too general. Also building on what Tube said, it's entirely possible to be suicidal and not actually die. And you don't have to be suicidal to have a 'goth state of mind'. As a biology student, you'll appreciate the metaphor of the difference between 'species' and 'breed': it's the same with subcultures. It's still possible to make classifications, despite the overlap between supsequent groupings.

AL: it would be scary if there was only 'one true goth'. I guess that would make me the 'one true me' instead. I'd have to be classed as an individual. Same as everyone else.

Ok. It sounds like you know your stuff. Frankly I can't belive I would make the claims I have in this forum. Keep in mind, it's a very old posting. Now, to answer your statements....

I do know a lot of gothic people despite my overly cheerful personality. This is due to some very old friendships that have brought me into contact with goths. At the time of making the first posting in this thread, All the goths I'd met had been posuers. They are a young group of people, in their late teens to early 20's. They are total bogans, for the most part. Just wannabees going through a 'phase'.

Now, I do know people with some very depressing histories. A good friend of mine has lead a life that, up untill recently, would shock a holocaust victim. I do know people affected be severe depression, and have nothing but respect and pity for them. Thse people are somewhat 'gothic' in appearence but would never actually call themselves gothic. So, For them it's not a fashon sort of thing. In people like this I respect a dark attitude...

Look, my understanding of gothic culture has grown a lot since I made that rather nasty generalisation. I understand it a bit better now. So, OK you've got wannabees, people making a fashon statement, on noe hand. Then on the other you have the victims of severe depression and harsh lives. So, what do you have in between?

Gothic culture, what is it? The gothic people I've met are almost always really friendly and accepting, much more so than in mainstream culture. I wonder if people are attracted to an element of great acceptance in being goth. Are goths more accepted by the goth community than mainstream life?

I'm drawn to the furry fandom for a similar reason; it offers a level of acceptence that I've never encountered in daily life.

So, fine, I can understand that element of the gothic culture fine then. What I still have trouble understanding is the very basis of gothic-ism. Why are goths so drawn to all things black and kafkaesque? Why the attraction to something so dark and depressing? I mean, I enjoy JTHM as much as the next person, but really, I find all the blackness and creepyness associated with gothicism depressing. Why are people so attracted to it?

Of course, I'm fairly biased. I'm a furry. I'm fascinated by all things bright and cheerful, not to mention fluffy. I'm a total pussy, I get upset too easily. I've had some fairly unhappy times in my past too and try to steer away from things bleak and sad, they bring back unhappy memeories.

Wanabees are a feature of every subculture, not just goths. Most people are one, at some point. It's a way of trying out a style for themselves without throwing themselves in the deep end too quickly.

"These people are somewhat 'gothic' in appearence but would never actually call themselves gothic..." Bear in mind most goths wouldn't call themselves a goth. It's a strange thing, but some actually resent being called it. Then again, they would dislike it even more if they were called anything else. I remember sitting in central wellington, hearing the goth equivalent of "hello!"... being: "Bloody goths!"

"...what do you have in between?" Yes some people have had shitty lives. Yes some people like to dress up. In between, you have people who relate to the goth subculture, and so choose to be part of it. Some of them dress up. Some of them have had shitty lives. Some are both. From my own experience, it's a way of coping. I originally became a goth because I had a terrible decade or so and I was sick of the way my life was continuing; I wanted to change direction and do something new, and I saw 'becoming' a goth as being part of that, and also partially as an acknowledgement of who I really was on the inside.

"The gothic people I've met are almost always really friendly and accepting..." Yeah you're not the first person to say that. I think it's because most goths have had severe first hand experience of being rejected by society, and so they don't like to do it to anyone else. Also they understand that diversity makes things interesting, so they're less likely to disregard someone out-of-hand just because they're 'not like us'.

"Are goths more accepted by the goth community than mainstream life?" In a way, although the way you phrase your question makes it hard to give a specific answer. Yes goths tend to be accepting of most people, goth or non-goth alike. However 'mainstream' people seem to admire anyone who can stand up for individuality and reasonable non-conformity without anarchistic narcissism, too. So it's hard to say where most respect can be found. In saying that, however, I feel it's important to respect yourself before seeking respect from others.

"Why are goths so drawn to all things black and kafkaesque? Why the attraction to something so dark and depressing?" It's what we can relate to. It's not so much that such things are attractive, just that there is a sort of comfort in sticking to what you know.
And not every goth enjoys JTHM either. Personally I prefer the humour of Squee, or Invader Zim. Although to be fair, I /do/ have a JTHM poster on my wall.

"...try to steer away from things bleak and sad, they bring back unhappy memeories..." Fair enough. Good for you. Again, speaking personally, I don't have many happy memories to fall back on. Thus I can't relate to Mission Impossible 2 or some other mainstream "Good guy gets the girl in the end" type-movie; but I /can/ relate to Schindler's list. When I count even Chicken Run as a sad movie, what else can I do?

You pretty much sum up what I think of gothicism then. I really see a number of parralels between the goth culture and the furry culture. Both do seem to be made up largly of individulas who have, for one reason or another, been rejected by mainstream culture to some extent. I know I have. And yes, both let you express your originality, although goths are a lot more noticible. I'm not surprised by how many people I know who are both goth and furry.

Yep.
I'm not surprised by the overlap, either.
So what does the term 'furvert' mean to a furry?

Well, a "furvert" is someone who's just into yiff, and not the whole furry culture. See, most furries tend to enjoy yiff (furry porn, for some reason foxes especially. But a real furry also enjoys other, non-sexual elements of the fandom. A furvert is just interested in the sexual nature as a perversion.

Hmm...I'm wondering, are there many Gay goths? For the most part, furries are bisexual, about 48% of us if a recent survey is to be belived. I think that this is a combination of furries' generally loving and gregarious nature, and the fact that most furries tend to be drawn to the fandom because of it's broadminded acceptance. I was wondering if this occurs in the gothic culture due to it's own easy acceptance of people.