h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ivan, after reading your post once I'd say your argument seems flawless and I have nothing to add, right now

Well done, mate

If PC thought this was illegal then yikesing was the right thing to do and then leave it to the mods to decide, mods afterall aren't all seeing watching everyones move.

This was not yikesing for yikesing sake and PC clearly stated that if it was a matter of 'offence' then debate was the prefable way forward.

Your final comment, Pierce, is excatly the sort of little comment that makes me wrinkle up nose. Did you want to move on and refocus on to Ivans comments, in which case, I would have said 'now I'm going to move onto Ivan's comments', but really I wouldn't have said it at all, I just would have just done that

As I read it that comment comes across as dismissive, my initial reaction was one of irritation, especially as you have asked a stack of questions and I think mis-interpreted what PC said.

However this is Ivan's space, perhaps you would accept an invite to mine to to talk it though?

Peanut

Okay

Psychocandy and others, feel free to join in this dicussion

F74943?thread=8261750&post=109893688#p109893688

Thoughts on what you've said, Ivan...

I guess my idea of what a troll is similar to yours (though with a bit of benefit of the doubt thrown in- it's possible and even likely that some people who display "trollish" behavior at times aren't doing it deliberately or with any malice in mind. No idea how to deal with that though.). I agree with all of the suggestions that we just look out for each other- one needn't join the Guardian Angels to alert the authorities that something appears problematic and causing someone much distress. None of that "superhero" mentality- wasn't there a group like that here once, Footi-somethingorother?

But can I wear my cape anyway? It goes with my new shoes.

Thanks, Peanut- but I'd also like to let Pierce know that I didn't feel like his (you are a gentleman, no?) post was meant to be dismissive. (And also that you both make really good points. )

This post has been removed.

Please ignore the above. We should keep Ivan's debate about trolling on topic, and Pierce and PC have started another conversation in the thread linked slightly further up the page.

B

"some" trolls always say that they don't like hootoo and how it's set out and that they don't like "most" of the researchers because "their" views are beneath the "trolls" versions.
BUT! they keep coming backis it paranoia ? that they think they are getting talked about behind their backs, is hootoo a form of fixthat they can't do without. Or is it that they don't have friends in real life and feel so insecure about themselves, that they have to be noticed all the time ?

Look, I am reading this, and I do have things to say, but I'm too tired right now to be coherent. So I'm just bumping the thread up the list.

Does anyone have anything else to put forward at this point?

"Troll" should be a verb not a noun. We should seek to change the behaviour before we seek to ostracize the person.

People may lack the awareness or self-awareness to see that their behaviour might be trollish.

There are times when someone being mischievous is fun and amusing, there are times when it's mean, nasty and disurptive.

We want to support people with mental health and other issues; in return we need people who have mental health or other issues to accept reponsibility for how their posts may come across. Mental health issues or other issues are NOT and never can be an excuse for trollish behaviour. Being mean is being mean.

Some of us think a shared playful response is appropriate, others of us are worried, based in past experiences on h2g2, that a shared response may lead to bullying and it can rapidly turn into factionalism and in-fighting and end up disrupting the whole site.

The people working on moderation in noohootoo are victims, same as we all are, of the disjointed, arbitary and shoddy moderation provided by the BBC over the past couple of years - which means that the approaches they are working on try to address the problems we've experienced.

That's what I've got from this thread....



B

>>We want to support people with mental health and other issues; in return we need people who have mental health or other issues to accept reponsibility for how their posts may come across. Mental health issues or other issues are NOT and never can be an excuse for trollish behaviour. Being mean is being mean.<<

at the risk of coming accross as really crass and insensitive - isn't that the elephant in the room?

Maybe it is.

I don't mind being crass and insensitive though, since that is probably what's needed at this juncture.



Oh, and a couple of other things which I'm not sure has been mentioned up-thread:

Bullying is not ok.

and...

You don't have the right to not be offended.

"God hates figs" is against the HR becaue it is bigoted hate-speech not becuase you are offended. This means it's ok for someone to post "God, I hate gardeners". It's not nice, but it won't get pulled because it upsets the ickle flowers.

Talking of ickkle flowers: if someone calls you "a dewicate ikkle fower" they are being agressive, rude, dismissive and mean. It might be bullying if it's part of a pattern of abuse by one person against another. It's not ok in all sorts of ways, but - and this is the important thing - I don't think the post should be pulled just because it does indeed upset the little flower.

I would hope that a Mod would drop into the conversation and say "less of the nasty, please" and if that didn't work that a quiet word was had by email with the Nasty Person explaining what was wrong and why. Maybe the post should be edited to say "This post contravenes the House Rules, we have left it here for the record, but we do not endorse posting in this way - (signed) the Mods)". There are lots of ways of dealing with things other than simply blasting holes in conversation threads.

Mrs Zen's last two posts sum my thoughts up nicely- and quite conveniently, as they save me the time typing out something somehwat similar.

Especially the last bit about calling out bad behavior and editing a post to say "we are leaving this post, but do not endorse posting in this way". That leaves the bad behavior on the record, which is helpful on two counts: (1) the community as a whole can see who is being nasty, to whom, and in what way(s), which makes it easier for well-meaning folks to avoid interacting with it, and (2) the community as a whole can get a better grip on what is and isn't generally considered nasty, with regard to those issues that might toe the line.

I really like the idea that the mods would be around and dropping into threads, it's the kind of moderation that works elsewhere - and coming from the community itself, I believe, gives it more weight and is more likely to be accepted by transgressors of rules.

On some boards the mods are regular members with extra powers - and they have a little hammer (or other symbol) next to their name so even newbies can instantly recognise them. With boards that have PM available, it also meant that anyone could contact a mod privately and ask questions, or flag up behaviour in private. I found that very useful as a moderation tool.

Robust debate isn't for all, and if they are gettting offended it is always possible to say "you know what, maybe you should give this convo a miss" and suggest a few alternative, less robust places, to hang out.

This is where I have an issue, I had a tranche of posts pulled last week, was surprised not to find myself on pre-mod and was left feeling more than a little aggrieved.

My language was strong but didn't fall foul of the filther, my points were similarly strong but all entirely justified and could be backed up with evidence. Most importantly, it was a *dialogue* where I was responding to posts someone else (if I was simply popping up to attack said person with no context fair enough, but I wasn't). I didn't like these posts I was replying to, which I was replying to them in such inclement terms, but I never thought to yikes them because they didn't breach the house rules.

My posts didn't breach the house rules either but this person played up the 'delicate little flower' routine, going on and on about how 'vulnerable' they were (people who know me on facebook/email could tell you just how 'vulnerable' I was last week but I didn't mention it once on here) and running around the site slandering me to all and sundry. Result? I get modded and a strong warning, this person continues to disrupt the site without boo being said to them.

It left a bad taste in the mouth and highlights the fact that modding here is badly broken and there needs to be a system where people who are trolling/griefing/spamming (and I'd say this persons behaviour is more the latter two than the first one) but are staying just the right side of the HR need to be sat down with and told that they need to cut the bull and stop giving excuses or find somewhere else to be.

This community is wonderfully supportive to those who are having difficulties so it's not a case of being cold or nasty, but if someone's condition genuinely prevents them from interacting with the community in a civil fashion, they need to stop posting until the condition is better. If they won't do it voluntarily (like most of us do when we're having a bad time if it) then it should be done forcefully.

My

I think we're very up tight about modding here, because we've always been externally modded.

It's hard to like a secret police-force.



H2g2 is - or used to be - big enough for a wide variety of conversational styles to be going on in all sorts of different places. Some people like the cut and thrust of the Forum, other's prefer the more laid-back off-topic intermittent surreality you get in Ask. It's horses for courses.

Perhaps we could have a robust-o-meter for different forums, with settings from "Fluffy" through "Fun" to "Fisticuffs".

I like the verb "griefing" HI.

B

*helps self to some and *

I didn't see the convo where you were getting posts modded, HI, but I think you have hit the nail on the head there.

However I'm getting the slapping hand out at you and Ben because "griefing" stop verbalising nouns!