h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I suppose ultimately it comes down to how much creativity is valued here over 'community'

If you want to aim for the highest standards of creativity there will be turmoil. It goes with the territory.

I had that hellish experience with that caddis fly larva article because I wouldn't compromise on its excellence of the kind of vision I had for it. A lot of people appeared to not have a clue what I was struggling to do with it. And yeah I was arrogant. Most artists are.

I admit that I've always been a little concerned about behaviors people can't control. Those behaviors can be far more difficult to cope with and far more destructive than deliberate meanness. On the one hand, we should be as accommodating to people as we can, especially with regard to things they have no control over. But on the other hand, I don't think a majority of people who manage to stick within the "Community house rules" the majority of the time should be expected to make special concessions to a few people who consistently skirt them for whatever reason. Ignoring doesn't always help- in the case of my stalker, it only made her up the ante.

But I would have no idea how to find a balance other than taking people on a case by case basis, addressing individual behaviors and why they are or aren't harmful or hurtful.

>>If you want to aim for the highest standards of creativity there will be turmoil. It goes with the territory.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I felt about the Della Wars.

I think you also had a hellish experience with that entry because you didn't understand the way PR worked and were expecting it to adjust to your vision of art. I'm not sure if there is enough middle ground between you and PR to make it work.

>>
But I would have no idea how to find a balance other than taking people on a case by case basis, addressing individual behaviors and why they are or aren't harmful or hurtful.
<<

That pretty much sums it up for me


>>
On the one hand, we should be as accommodating to people as we can, especially with regard to things they have no control over. But on the other hand, I don't think a majority of people who manage to stick within the "Community house rules" the majority of the time should be expected to make special concessions to a few people who consistently skirt them for whatever reason. Ignoring doesn't always help- in the case of my stalker, it only made her up the ante.
<<

hmm, we do seem to get stuck in this dichotomy though. I think there are other options beyond putting up with/ignoring and getting rid of.

I think bluntness would be good.

If people find someone just too difficult to accomodate, tell them so. They then know what sort of community it is.

Eg I could easily live in Italy where it is completely normal for people to behave more like I do but probably not Denmark. No community can be all things to all people.

"I think there are other options beyond putting up with/ignoring and getting rid of."

Agreed. I just don't always know what the other options are (or even what they should be). I'm usually inclined to just ignore what bothers me and stick out of other people's disagreements. But I do hate it when the kind of all-encompassing turmoil rises up and engulfs the whole site.

>I think you also had a hellish experience with that entry because you didn't understand the way PR worked and were expecting it to adjust to your vision of art. I'm not sure if there is enough middle ground between you and PR to make it work.<

I think you're right.

So it would be good that it could be made abundantly clear to people who might join us that they have to fit in to a system...not be too much of an individualist. That's a crux I think. Goes for the community as well as the Guide.

I find the big events fascinating, although I have way less tolerance now than I used to.

What's been an eye opener for me in these recent convos is learning how many people have had personal trolls/stalkers

I do think we have learned alot recently about what happens on site and how people feel about it. That's good for the Community Team in developing a functional moderation system.

>>
So it would be good that it could be made abundantly clear to people who might join us that they have to fit in to a system...not be too much of an individualist.
<<

I guess. I thought it was self-evident, and was a bit surprised you didn't know about PR given how long you'd been here. Also, I take a different approach personally - if I'm going into a new situation I believe I have some responsibility for figuring out how it works, esp if I have an expectation of things going well.

The EG crowd are making some changes to PR I think to make it more approachable and user friendly

>I guess. I thought it was self-evident, and was a bit surprised you didn't know about PR given how long you'd been here. Also, I take a different approach personally - if I'm going into a new situation I believe I have some responsibility for figuring out how it works, esp if I have an expectation of things going well..<

Well you're far more sensible than me

This has been an interesting conversation...but it's hellish hard to change one's fundamental nature. I'm away to the garden to commune with Nature.

Nature is always good I'd do that too but it's hard to see anything outside right now

To be blunt, I think the community should put some firm boundaries in place with regards to you, ensuring there are enough people who can keep an eye out for you too, and hopefully that will make it possible for you to be here and both you and the community to be ok.

I've certainly seen you make a big effort in the last month to make changes, and I think there is stuff you are still missing, and no doubt stuff that you don't care about that other people do.

Kea,

Mmm, I read Sho's post as her PMT being a bit more than with the normal range, sorry if I read that wrong Sho. For myself, I will go as far as too say that people aren't usually offered anti depressants to deal with their PMT, it's not just once month (TMI for some I'm sorry) and I like to think that I'm quite nice and reasonable but I alter to someone utterly unrecognisable, full of anger or depressed, irrational, fearful, overwhelmed etc Far away 'stressy and down'

Containing that and dealing with it, is hugely difficult even if I'm not 'ill' enough to completely lose insight, behaviour wise the level of self discipline it takes is mammoth, along with trying not to hate myself for the way I feel, what I think, even if I'm not acting on it, it's well, a struggle and once the hormones have eased the effects remain with me, I can't just always get over where they have taken me

As we are being honest here, there you go I've shared a bit of me

I think as communities go this one is an accepting one, not perfect granted, but in terms of acceptance and tolerance, on the whole I'd rate it quite highly.

You last question a hard one, can't answer it because the answer is different at different times for different people, in terms of trusting my judgement I think I have RL skills that I can apply to here, sometimes I'm going to be wrong but if Effers is prepared to take a leap of faith with me when I draw a line, it's the best sort of referance I can get. How far we get together only time will tell.


Peanut

post 173 responce to 160

not keeping up

Okay i came indoors again. But its totally brilliant out there.

>and both you and the community to be ok.<

You make me sound like something dangerous. Believe me I have a heart of gold and no nasty malice. But on h2g2 I'm somehow perceived in this strange way.

Too much heart is a problem.

And yes Nature is everything.

But I'll discuss things further with peanut about these boundaries.

Thanks Peanut

I took Sho's post to mean that she has a relatively high degree of control over her behaviour (despite how severe the PMS might be) i.e. she can make choices about what to share online and when and where, or to remove herself if she judges that important. Not everyone has that degree of insight and control (other than a general removing oneself completely and even for some people that's too hard).

So I wasn't meaning to marginalise the seriousness of PMS for some women and personally I think it's good for people to be able to share what they are comfortable sharing. What you just told us is very full on and I don't feel I can do it justice in my reply as I am about to turn into a


For me (in this conversation) it's not so much what people are dealing with, it's about their ability to manage. You can have two people with the same issue and one person can be high functioning and the other not.

I have a couple of points to add, that don't come from any history of mental illness but do come from a few months of working in pscyhiatry, my medical training and from being the offspring of artists.

Firstly and I want to put this in 3 foot high letters. Most people with mental illness, the vast vast majority are just fine on h2g2, and don't need any special consension made. A causal reader to this thread would think that the majority of people with mental illness were unstable trolls who needed to be tip toed around.

Mental illness is common, and most people really have no problems interacting on h2g2. If we are continually talking about people with a mental illness although they need special consessions made then we are stigmatising them.

Some people with some types of mental illness occassionally have times when they are not as well and and may sometimes struggle to control their behaviour when they are unwell. Usually for short periods of time. There are some people who unfortunately don't have the 'well periods' in between. But that's a very very few. Then of course there's a combination.

But this is a tiny minority of people with mental illness, who are mostly JUST FINE on h2g2. So we cannot, *Must not* go around talking although all people with mental illness are not in control of their behaviour, that isn't true. If we do that then people are not going to want to talk about their health problems which is NOT OK.

In terms of what we do when someone who is having an episode of a severe mental illness is here - well that's a difficult one.


And I want to be blatently obvious that this is NOT referring to Effers or indeed ANYONE else in this thread.
There may be two different aspects here.

Also none of this is 'offical nohootoo' policy, it's thinking out loud.

So



There is a difference between someone who is ok most of them time and occassionally behaves in a disruptive way.

What you do during the episode, and what you do later. IF someone is behaving in a disruptive way and offending and hurting large amounts of people, then there are a number of reasons why that may be happening. It could be intentional that they enjoy seeing people get angry and they don't think that we're really people, or they could be drunk, on drugs, or perhaps they could be experiencing an episode of a mental illness.

Obviously if the behaviour is very very disruptive and no one can enjoy h2g2 as a result then their are various options available. Including a short term ban, say about 12 hours, and pre mod (though I'm not sure if the volunteer moderators would be able to manage with large amounts of reseachers on pre-mod).

Once things have calmed down then there's the matter of what we can do to stop it happening again. I would hope that we could engage with them on a 1:1 level to understand what happened, why it happened and whether it was likely to happen again. I personally would be a lot more sympathetic to someone who had a episode of unacceptable behaviour due to mental illness, than if it was due to them being drunk.

Then there's what to do if someone is never able to behave in a way that doesn't disrupt the site. That's much more complex and much much rarer. Perhaps they don't *get* the ways of acceptable behaviour and need it carefully explaining to them. Again perhaps engaging with them on an 1:1 level and trying to understand where they are coming from is important.



Oh and Effers PR experience? I see that as being mostly about being an artist, and the process being too constraining. But other realaties are available.

Z

And you have no idea the amount of energy I have put into being relatively well behaved here given how little I sleep and eat.

It keeps getting better and getting worse again.

>>Believe me I have a heart of gold and no nasty malice. But on h2g2 I'm somehow perceived in this strange way.
<<

I've been on the receiving end of some nasty, hurtful stuff from you, so while I do believe you are a genuinely caring person I also know that there is a sting in the tail at times. To what extent you are aware of this I don't know, and to what extent you are willing to look at how other people experience this I also don't know. I'm also not sure how much you care about that.

I also think there are times when what you post is just you being challenging or reacting to mean shit that someone else is doing, but it may still not be ok for other people or the wider community. There is a balance there of one's individuality and how much one wants to belong.

I don't think the situation is by any means hopeless though

I have no intention of going over the reasons for what happened recently between us. But I can categorically assure there was no real malice involved. A lot of panic was involved. I don't know how much knowledge you have of my problems.

I am a genuinely caring person. Too much in fact.

I know in my heart what's true about me...but if others perecive things differently I can't help that.

i didn't grow up properly is probably closest.

You might not ever trust me again properly I know that.

It's quite tragic I think.

Kea, no replies necessary, just putting it out there really

Sorry, generally, if it was 'full on', I'm sorry for that too, it wasn't meant to be,I was just being honest

'Full on' a little bit funny given the particular issue I was discussing