h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oops, , make that Hati, not Hatri

"re 71 & 77:

why are you watching this in barlesque when there is perfect alabaster to be had "

I'm not.. but other people are. I wasn't aware till Bel mentioned it that journal entries are posted there. I guess I won't be posting much to my journal till after the move, then.

I might start a conversation about how to avoid/deal with/cope with trolls, then have some of the worst offenders make an appearance, and my irony meter couldn't handle that.

On another topic related to Ivan's OP but not to trolls or moderation...

Ivan mentions bringing more credibility to PR. I'd like to voice a general concern with regard to PR and "publishing" entries to the EG. I've written I think three editied entries. The last one put me right off writing for the EG for good. Not because of the PR process- everyone was very helpful, and kind. I figured out how to do the GuideML markup on my own. But then the sub-ed wrecked it. Introduced all kinds of spelling, syntax and grammatical errors. Anglicised proper USAian names. Changed my (correct) US-> Metric conversions to incorrect ones. Mangled my formatting. Etc, etc. For *six years* I begged to have these issues corrected, and was refused, on the basis that once an entry is edited, only the sub-ed who did it can change it. Wha?

Eventually, I was able to get a curator to do it for me (and then, only because this person is a friend and found me moaning about it). I'm glad we have curators now. But (IMO) the original author really must be able to maintain some level of control over the integrity of his or her writing, and be allowed some level of editorial control.

re 82 & 83:

Both posts sound very sensible to me

When I prepped entries for The Book I retained US spellings for entries which had a strong American voice.

I think if we are to be an international guide, (we're the guide to the GALAXY f*s), then we should support international variations on English.

Is my .

Ivan I'm with you 100% on all of your points in post 1. The troll thing - particularly the insiduous trolls - are a huge bugbear with me too.

As for Kea managing to stay involved from here (NZ) - I too am in awe. The 13 hour time difference with the UK makes most conversations difficult if not impossible and only accentuates the feeling of posting into thin air.

At the end of the day I ask myself "What's in it for me?" Most of the time I'm willing to put more in than I get back, because I'm a believer in what goes round comes round. But it's been too long since anything sustained and positive came my way from hootoo, so my involvement dwindles...

I'll still pop in from time to time and perhaps I'll read something which will spark me up again. Getting rid of trolls would help a lot.

Fb

Yes, I can't imagine what it's like coping with the time difference for Ivan, kea, Frenchbean, and others from the antipodes. I can hardly keep up from CST (GMT -6). I log on in the mornings while I have my coffee (around 6am my time) and again when I get home from work (5:30-ish), but so much happens either while I'm at work, or while I'm asleep.

popping in here because it's a subject close to my heart.

I don't like the idea of a concerted effort against a troll unless it's spontaneous. I would prefer to be able to call someone on their behaviour, but I have been caught out in the past by people then stalking me and things can get out of control (not here, elsewhere - and I was a moderator at the time, it lead to a lifetime ban)

I prefer a holistic approach to moderation, and I also prefer posts to stay as reasonably whole as they can with a [edited for profanity / rule breaking / whatever - by mod] disclaimer at the bottom. It helps people to know what is unacceptable, it also helps others to know who the trolls are.

On the other hand, I also like to read posts in isolation. There are people on this site who make me want to eat my eyeballs as soon as I see their names. But sometimes in some contexts they make good posts, and I prefer to respond to that post than think "oh no! it's that idiot Troll-person stay away"

And then of course: I fantasise a lot about getting my slapping hand out.

I like the idea of editing posts rather than removing them whenever possible- *when* they break the HRs or what have you. The eds used to asterisk out disallowed swear words.

Another thing that I wonder about is what criteria should/will be used when deciding what's not allowed with regard to posts that promote illegal activities. There was a specific thread once, where someone posted a couple of links to an organization that advocated activities that are illegal in my home State, as well as being really nasty. I yikesed the posts, but the activity isn't illegal in the UK so the posts remained. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it would be nice, if this to be a more "international" site, if it wasn't just UK law that was applied. Some laws in one country are direct opposite to laws in another.

But where do you draw the line as to which country's laws are applied?

>> we should support international variations on English<< - Yes, but entries should be consistent internally!

>> There was a specific thread once, where someone posted a couple of links to an organization that advocated activities that are illegal in my home State, as well as being really nasty. I yikesed the posts, but the activity isn't illegal in the UK so the posts remained. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it would be nice, if this to be a more "international" site, if it wasn't just UK law that was applied. Some laws in one country are direct opposite to laws in another.

That is phenomenally interesting.

In practical terms it'll almost certainly be UK and EU law that rules. But I still think the question's an interesting one.

B

I would appreciate if people stopped yikesing posts like that. We are adults here and how can we debate stuff if posts about it are hidden?

Do you mean stop yikesing posts like the one I mentioned? I only did because it advocated what I understand to be illegal and the HRs state that's verboten.

That said, if the activity is just nasty and not illegal, I'd love to see it debated and input along the lines of "where I'm from, that's not even legal", etc. I've never, ever yikesed a post to stop a conversation, to shut someone up, or even because it offended *me* personally. Only if I truly thought it to be in violation of the HRs, or if I thought someone else was being harassed (I didn't even yikes posts by my stalker- other people did!).

I think what I'm doing here is mainly thinking aloud, with regard to legality. Obviously we can't figure out what is legal and what isn't in every jurisdiction in the world. What I meant wasn't more enforcement- what I was aiming at is more clarity. For instance, let's say hypothetically that issues of legality always defer to UK or EU law. How am I to know what is and isn't legal there? I only know the laws of Illinois (and not all of those, either!)


I specify Illinois law and not US law because not all laws are federal ones- each state makes most of its own laws. I don't take for granted that all non-USAians know this.

Hi everyone, I'm back again after a reasonably unpleasant couple of days in the clutches of daily life.

I'm going to deal with the rest of my backlog and then I'll come back here and catch up on everyone's thoughts.

>>How am I to know what is and isn't legal there?<<

The same way we do - reading up on the laws, or more often, making assumptions until something else is pointed out to us.

Being yikesed has taught me a bit about defamation and copyright, not that I would wilfully break these laws I'm just ignorant

*waves at Ivan* I don't envy you the backlogue but at least now you can sure that you are very much listened to and there is a queue of people that just want you to stay.

I hope that gives you some cheer when you come back with , well that and a

All the best, Peanut

Yes, welcome back, Ivan!

Mala... and you know me well enough to know I'm not saying this to be snarky...

I don't have *time* to read up on the laws (not even my own), so I tend to do like everyone else, and go by trial and error. I assume that posting a few stanzas of a song, properly attributed, is "fair use", but my (at the time) personal PY yikesed a post of mine like that, and the post was removed.

But I don't necessarily want to get myself caught in a legality feedback loop or anything. It's just something that's always been in the back of my mind.

Of course, that said, 99% of the time, it's a matter of being mean and not legality, so maybe I'm wondering about a point that's totally moot.

At last I've dealt with the backlog, and a few irritating slices of RL that got in the way.

I'm sure everyone will understand that I'm not even going to try to respond to each post individually; it's probably more useful if I try to catch and pin down some of the emerging themes.

Let's start with 'What is a Troll?'

This is going to be one of those things like 'what is obscenity' - the average reasonable person will know it when they see it, and everybody's personal view of the matter is going to be different. Also, just like obscenity, some people will shy away when they catch a glimpse of it but others are going to move in for a closer look.

All I can say is what a Troll is in my view. For me, it's a person who starts arguments purely for the sake of starting arguments, or revives old dead-damned-and-forgotten arguments, in the hope of getting other people stired up. It's also the person who persists with a line of behaviour when asked to stop, sometimes by a number of people acting independently. It's the person who takes one issue and beats someone else over the head with it again and again in various unconnected threads, sometimes even dragging the issue onto the other person's PS, despite being asked not to. It's the person who can't or won't see that they are, through their deliberate actions, causing genuine distress to another person or group of people - not just internet distress but actual genuine RL distress that can persist even when it's a lovely sunny day outside and the target is going for a nice long walk in the country and there's not a single webpage in sight. It's also the person who, when advised that the target will simply not engage with them any further, will not give up.

There are almost certainly other troll-types that I recognise but that I haven't listed. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on what behaviours they see as Trollish.

If we get enough of these views corralled in one place, we might be able to get some sort of coherent response on what constitutes a troll on hootoo and/or noohootoo. This is a big hope; I know there are probably theses being written on the subject even as I type.

That being said, I think we shouldn't ever try for a single pithy definition. We'll never agree on one of those. The eye of the beholder can't be left out of the equation.

Who can be sure they're virtuous?

With N*ghth**v*r as my witness, I know there are issues I'd play differently if they came up now, and that some of the approaches I've taken in the past weren't ideal. I think the point I'm getting to here is that everyone can lose the plot from time to time. I think we could all do with the occasional reminder that we all need to play nicely, and also that this is only a website in a remote corner of the internet and there will always be Things that are Wrong on the Internet. We all need to know when to stop, count to 10 or 100, and back off a bit.

The flip-side of that, of course, is that if someone does back off they should be allowed to do so with dignity - they should not be pursued elsewhere. That's Trollish. (In my opinion, that is - see above.)

The Anti-Troll Flying Squad.

This sure started some discussion. Good. Something had to.

A formal police squad is not something I'd welcome. Badges, membership, defined roles - no thanks. I wouldn't want to be part of something so regimented. (For context - I'm a proud Leftie but I won't join a union. It's too rigid an organisation for me. I just don't join things.)

An informal response mechanism - that I would welcome. This really just amounts to looking out for each other. With Hati's troll, this is basically what happened; it wanted to talk sex, other people turned up and talked socks instead. Think of it as frequency-jamming. It worked in that case, for two reasons - the response was light-hearted, and the troll seems not to have been terribly bright.

Frequency-jamming wouldn't necessarily work in cases where the troll is more mentally agile, or more determined, or more blatantly malicious.

I think this does boil down to looking out for each other, and to voicing concerns - dropping into threads if things look a bit hairy, not to be any sort of caped crusader but just to be a visible witness, perhaps. If it's the bullying sort of troll, the troll might back off at that point. (Bullies generally don't like being observed.)

Also note: caped crusader antics can resemble flaming. Best avoided.

Any thoughts on this lot?

The ability to contact the Mods

I'm thinking that we need an email address for the Mods where we can just say 'I have concerns that a particular researcher is being a bit trollish' or similar. The only response would be 'Thanks for letting us know', with no further discussion - I'd see this as the trigger for the Mods (anonymous, omniscient, omnipresent) just to have the individual on their radar. It's all very well moderating referred posts in context, but this would ensure that the Mods are aware that there is actually a context they need to know about.

Anyone?

Further issues

There are more things that have been said, but I want to see how discussions go before I have my say. Slightly cowardly, I know, but also I should mention that there has been some real in play while I've been writing this and I need a clearer head than I currently have if I'm to be coherent on these matters.



So - any further thoughts on any of the above?

Ivan.

Ok a few quick thoughts and I'll be back later.

I'd like to couch a discussion of 'what is a troll', in terms of what is 'trolling behaviour', I am uncomfortable with labeling people I guess, even is someone is displaying a pattern of 'trolling behaviour.

On who can be virtous, I know I can't, we all behave badly, or perhaps not as wisely as we might ordinarily do at times but can apologise, be genuinely contrite and learn from those mistakes so as not to repeat. Also if something gets my goat, I sometimes try to ask for clarification on a comment, what you read is always what was meant

I would like to see some discussion generally around the subject of how to deal with 'trolling behaviour' where is that line between offering support for a friend and what might come across as ganging up etc.

Email to mods is a must have.
Anonymous mods, yes

Crucially, mods must respond early and if behaviour is persistant, sanctions racked up pretty quickly but behind the scenes and onsite if appropriate there should be a link with the community team to tackle behaviours or resolve issues. Holistic approach like Sol said, was it Sol? Sorry if it wasn't

What about sanctions, first steps like pre-mod are disruptive onsite and require a fair amount of adminstration. I think it has its place as a tool but what about mini-suspensions, a cool off period, a hey you are spissed, get some sleep sort of thing, ramping up to longer suspensions if behaviour continues?

Final point, looking after each other a definate yes, going back to the look at our own behaviours, yes again, sometimes h2g2 is not a place that I like to spend my free time in and wouldn't probably join just because of the snipiness that goes on in threads on forums.

Not trolling just negative enough to make me shrug and not participate.



Peanut

re 93:

"Do you mean stop yikesing posts like the one I mentioned? I only did because it advocated what I understand to be illegal and the HRs state that's verboten. "

So you feel obliged to yikes anything that you believe is illegal?

In one country or other?

Why is that? You are not responsible for what others have posted on Hootoo.

How can we discuss - say - the sharia laws here? Perfectly legal in some states, absolutely illegal where I live

Not to mention sex. I hear sexual intercourse where men and women don't face each other is illegal in the majority of the US. Don't know if this is (still) true, but we can't discuss it if you yikes this

Freedom of speech is not just the basis for democracy, it is democracy in itself

Now let's discuss what Ivan said