h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Which qualities SEF? I would like to say that Lil has never behaved like you suggest in any thread where I've been, which I must admit is not very many, but I do not believe she would.

I expect you'll put that down to me being a naive child, though .

Um, SEF, I didn't actually admit to having those qualities; rather, I am genuinely sorry that you think I possess them. Perhaps you could not be so personal?

I want to know who did the graphics for Atled.

I've never experienced Lil being anything but accepting. When she doesn't understand something, she says "I don't understand that." I have never known her to be hypocritical, nor the Atelier to be anything less than a space where people could have conversations about, honestly, anything without fear of being made fun of. Some, or perhaps even all, of the regulars on that thread are have some firm convictions, yet no one feels like they can't say what they think or feel. Which is remarkably different from the recent conversations involving Tango, since I have been insulted nearly every time I've posted.

And I don't see Lil as being hypocritical here...she has one question, and one question only, and has been remarkably restrained in the face of Tango's insults and non-answers.

(Sorry, Lil, I know that you are perfectly capable of standing up for yourself, but I couldn't let this one slide...I've known you for what, nearly two years, and I can honestly say I don't know the person being referred to by your name here)

Sorry, now I'm curious! Who did those graphics for Atled? I haven't seen them, so if anybody would like to post a link, I'd be grateful.

The atled images have not been uploaded. They were emailed directly to Mina. A link is therefore impossible.

Tango

But, Tango, you have the files. And you have webspace available to you. Please display the pictures and link to them.

I'm at college at the moment, the pictures are at home. I'll look into uploading them this evening.

Tango

Thank you, Tango.

"And I don't see Lil as being hypocritical here"

You are making the mistake of assuming everything Lil was posting about was in this thread. You should already have seen for yourself that it looked like a non-sequitur. Go over to RF22 for the threads on Camp Site and Spaced Out Guide and you'll see Lil being hypocritical very recently. NB If you look through the CA volunteer threads you'll see many more examples of hypocrisy from other CAs and staff but that would take longer.

SEF, whatever I may think about your personal qualities, I try to keep the level of discussion civil. I will ask you again, please, not to be so personal. It is distressing to me.

SEF is not being personal, it is just commenting on your actions. If you are not willing to take responsibility for you actions you should be very careful what you do and say (probably to the extent of not doing anything).

Tango

SEF is not being personal, it is just commenting on your actions. If you are not willing to take responsibility for you actions you should be very careful what you do and say (probably to the extent of not doing anything).

Tango

I'm starting to get the impression that some people here have a different idea of what "personal" means than some of the other people here, in reference to comments made.

For reference, a statement like "You're a hypocrite and a liar," is personal, and could rightly be construed as a personal attack, *even* if the words were true. It's considered personal because you're making a statement that attempts to define what type of person they are in general, and not just in a specific situation related to specific acts.

On the other hand, saying something like -- "You said XXX in this thread, and then YYY in this other thread (with specific examples, and even links, preferably) -- the two are so opposite in meaning, that I'm having a hard time seeing that you could truly believe them both. On top of that, you said ZZZ above in post 42, but I'm sure that's not true -- just look at this quote from the House Rules: "ABC DE FGH."

Yes, the latter takes more time, but that's true about many things that are worth doing well -- if you're interested in trying to get people to see your side of things, it's generally worth trying to present as reasoned and persuasive argument as possible. When people see individuals substituting personal attacks for reasoned argument, they often assume that this happening because there is no sound reasoning.


Mikey

SEF, I have been in many conversations with Lil, and in none of them was she hypocritical. She is just like any other human being, with emotions that don't always make sense, but I guess before I suggest that you are just being mean, I would like to know what your definition of being a hypocrite actually is.

On that note, Tango, since you have called so many people stupid, what, exactly, do you mean by that term?

MR (and Mikey) I did give references. I have done so before many times. If you fail to look them up and then claim they don't exist then you are being dishonest. If one of the underlines manipulates the italics into removing the specific examples (or the staff do it themselves) in order to conceal the truth then that is hardly my fault.

A hypocrite is someone who criticises someone else for something they themselves do. That is extremely common behaviour in the staff and CAs. In addition I believe the term spreads some way over into the double standards of a person who is criticising someone for something which they may not in fact do and certainly doesn't do any more than all the people that person is failing to call to account for actually doing it, eg just because they are personal friends or some other self-interest taints their judgement. The whole of the site is littered with examples of that. If you haven't seen them then your research skills are very bad indeed or you simply don't want to look because you don't want to see the truth (again a very common phenomenon).

So, you're accusing me of being a sloppy researcher *and* deliberately ignoring the truth because I haven't gone through every single post Lil has made in 4 years?

Now that's just silly. I have had plenty of opportunity to look at things Lil has posted here, in the CA threads, and in various other conversations she has been involved in, and I have never seen an incidence of her being hypocritical. Critical? Certainly. But Lil is one of the most principled researchers I have met. Not to mention the fact that she is, with rare exceptions, unfailingly polite (although she does, like anyone else, have her limits.)

And for clarification purposes, what, exactly, do you mean by "I believe the term spreads some way over into the double standards of a person who is criticising someone for something which they may not in fact do and certainly doesn't do any more than all the people". If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that questioning Atled about his double identity is hypocritical? Why, may I ask, is the need for clarification hypocritical? And it doesn't matter how many people do it...we aren't talking about many people, we are talking specifically about Tango's behavior. There's a big difference.

"So, you're accusing me of being a sloppy researcher *and* deliberately ignoring the truth because I haven't gone through every single post Lil has made in 4 years?"

No, SEF gave specific references to 2 threads in which lil contradicted herself. That is being hypocritical. You did not have to read every post, and SEF never said you did. Try and read what people say more carefully in future.

"And for clarification purposes, what, exactly, do you mean by "I believe the term spreads some way over into the double standards of a person who is criticising someone for something which they may not in fact do and certainly doesn't do any more than all the people". If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that questioning Atled about his double identity is hypocritical? Why, may I ask, is the need for clarification hypocritical? And it doesn't matter how many people do it...we aren't talking about many people, we are talking specifically about Tango's behavior. There's a big difference."

I also don't understand what SEF meant by that...

Someone asked me to define stupid, so i will give a definition off the top of my head, and then i will look it up.

From me: "Stupid: Incapable of intelligent thought, speech or actions."

From dictionary.com: "Stupid: Lacking or marked by lack of intellectual acuity" (there are other definitions there as well, but i think that one sums up what i mean when i say it)

Tango

"MR (and Mikey) I did give references."

SEF, you seem to missing my point. It is not merely about giving references, it also lies in the difference between making comments about *actions* and making comments about *people*.

Personally, I wouldn't consider it a "personal attack" or really even "rude" if you said something to the effect of "I think what XXX has done is hypocritical, and have explained why in detail elsewhere." What you have said is that individual people *are* hypocritical.

Again, saying that people *are* hypocritical or that they *are* stupid, or any other such equivalent negative comment, implies that you know what kind of person they actually are. And you simply don't have the information to make that call, especially not with anyone you've only interacted with online. All you can really say with validity is that you find their *actions* to be hypocritical or stupid, etc. Not everyone who acts in some cases stupidly is, in fact, stupid as a person. I wouldn't call Einstein stupid by any means, and yet he certainly had moments in his life when he *acted* with considerable stupidity, made stupid comments, or stupid decisions. There's a pretty clear difference there.

Also, SEF, I never said that you didn't give evidence or references for your statement. You, I've always seen to state your reasoning at least somewhere in the backlog. On subjective matters, I do not always agree with your conclusions, but that doesn't make your conclusions invalid -- that is the nature of subjectivity, after all. My problem with your statements lies predominantly in your choice of subjects -- the person, rather than the actions.

The point about evidence/references was actually more for the benefit of Tango (who you'll notice the post was addressed to) and spook, who I have seen making such comments without bothering to provide adequate reasoning. Of course, you are, what? Twice the age of Tango and spook? So perhaps it's not entirely surprising that there's a difference there.

Age and experience are not as entirely irrelevant as some would have us think.

I wasn't saying anything about questioning Tango over Atled. I never mentioned it. Go and look at the references which I *did* mention.

I was saying that the very narrow definition of being a hypocrite is failing to look at one's own actions when criticising others for the same things - ie "do as I say, not as I do". Whereas a wider definition would include failing to criticise the actions of others whom you know to be wrong because your association with those people is almost as close as your association with yourself - ie you identify with them and are deliberately(?) blinkered to their faults or pretend to be when attacking other people.

Mikey, I merely included you in a bracket as an afterthought as you were saying some of the same things.