h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I wonder if anybody in Florida voted twice. It might explain a lot!

Sorry about posting that twice. H2G2 seemed to hang (or my connection did) while posting, so I re-posted. It's not my fault, honest!

I love the way that the old phrase "nineteen to the dozen" meaning at a furious rate has been corrupted by the intellectual midgets of modern broadcasting to "ten to the dozen" - but without changing the meaning.

It's shocking how many idioms and maxims get twisted like that, and no one knows the difference anymore. Try to correct it, and they act like you're being superior. I'm not, I'm just locked in this time-warp where you actually had to learn things, and people expected you to actually know things.

So, I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut it'll not improve!

I feel like that too somehow. A propos dollars to doughnuts.. my father used to say "I'll have your guts for garters" - quite bloodthirsty if you think about it, but the alliteration makes it sound quite amusing. It probably comes from the Navy.

This one's on the Worldwide Words site. It's nothing to do with the navy. Apparently, the earliest reference is in 1819, although it probably goes back further. And, yes, it is a direct reference to getting revenge / satisfaction by disembowelling somebody.

A baker's dozen. 13. 13? 13! why?

Generous bakers?

AFAIR it was because bakers used historically to bake an extra one in each batch to check flavour, to prod for cooking progress, or in case one got spoiled.

Early trading standards here!! At some point, even before I was born, the sale of bread was regulated and 12 loaves was the standard & they had to weigh a certain amount. Underweight and the baker was fined so they used to offer 13 to make sure of the weight.

And here I thought it was just generous bakers...oh well, another Santa Claus/Tooth Fairy/Baker's Dozen fantasy bites the dust.
Baker' Dozen has always been more meaningful to me than any jolly old elves breaking into my house and leaving cheap toys or spare change.

They're not numerical...but I like:

1) Minding your p's and q's.

2) Liking the cut of your jib.

3) Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

4) Someone or something being "kitty-corner".

For once Worldwide Words has failed me! I know the origin of 'mind your p's and q's' (Old printers set typeface from separate letters. Lower-case p and q are the mirror image of each other, so printers had to be careful when using them.). Kitty-corner is, as I suspected, a variant of 'catercorner', which means diagonally across a corner. However, the site gave me no help with the other two. 'Liking the cut of one's jib' refers to their personal appearance, so I guess that it's comparing someone's neat, smart appearance with a neat, smart sail. I've heard 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' and know what it means, but don't know it's origin.

Oh, I knew the origin of the first three, but the baby-bathwater situation and another one, the bull in the china shop, have always puzzled me. I know what they mean, and get the appropriate picture in my mind. But who first used them? What was the context?

A friend of mine and I keep a running list of strange aphorisms. Her mother is an English professor and knows some of the backstories, but not all...

If someone had not already said "sixes and sevens" I would have added that too.

We know what they mean, but how about the origins of:

"by hook or by crook"?
"in for a penny, in for a pound"?
"two birds in a hand are worth one in a bush"?
"don't count your chickens before they hatch"?
"better to be safe than sorry"?

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Heh. I think you mean, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" instead of "two birds in a hand are worth one in a bush." It just means that it's better to something done, or owned, than to have something potentially done, or owned. I'm sure it's a bird hunting expression, though whether it's origins are English or American or Canadian or Dutch or Swahili I haven't the foggiest. Heh. I'm full of expressions today! See what you've done?!

"don't count your chickens before they hatch"?
Isn't that an obvious reference to chicken farming, or just farming in general? I think mankind has kept chickens and on farms and such since at least 4000BC, maybe even before recorded time (hey, which came first, the chicken or the egg?! heheh, sorry, couldn't resist). It seems that it's just a common expression of a wise thing to do - don't plan too far ahead, or don't make plans for things before knowing the outcome ... hmm, no ... uhmmm ... rats, I've used this expression so much I must confess that I'm having a hard time putting it into different words.

"better to be safe than sorry"?
I think this one has roots in common expression usage. "Better safe than sorry" is just a clever use of some alliteration to remind people to exercise some wisdom when making a choice, be it actual safety from bodily harm or safety from financial disaster and so on. It's just one of those catch-phrases that sounds good and rolls off the tongue easily.

Sorry about the bird mixup! I knew that it didn't look right when I posted it, but, impatience is NOT the mother of invention. (Oooooo, bad, I know...)

As I said I know what those sayings mean. My question was in what context were they first used?

It's just like the first person who looked at an oyster and said:

"It looks like an aphrodisiac to me!"

Ha! Good point about the oysters! Someone must have been VERY hungry to try those. (how they became known as an aphrodesiac I think I'll be content to just wonder about )

But *cough* I need to correct something *ahem* ... I've looked around some more, and it seems that the idea that "the whole nine yards" coming from a measure of ammunition is a bit of a pig's ear. (I just can't help myself!) That is, it's hogwash. (darn!) Okay, I'm trying to say that it's not very accurate. I visited a couple other sites that made the more believeable claim that ammo was generally measured in volume or weight, not length. I think I need to call my Uncle now and make him apologize for making be believe such a tale - I might have to twist his arm until he cries "Uncle!" though. Gads, I'm horrible today. heheh

In one of Terry Pratchett's books, he mentions Nanny Ogg's Carrot and Oyster Pie. The carrots are to help you see in the dark and the oysters are to give you something to look at.

In Ireland it is said that "by hook or by crook" comes from two headlands in the south of Ireland, Hook Head and Crook Head. Some political figure (Oliver Cromwell?) said he would invade Ireland "by Hook or by Crook".

Like a lot of these explanations, this sounds too neat to be true to me. I suspect that the explanation was made up after the phrase became popular.

p's and q's - Remember that the typeface letters the printers used were all backwards, so a p looked like a q and a q looked like a p. But the same would apply to b's and d's.

Another explanation is that tallies were kept in inns of the amount of drink consumed. p stood for pint, q for quart (an archaic and American word for 2 pints). It was easy to confuse the p's and q's and charge the customer too much or too little.