h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hello, Hot-Fat... I must say I think you are quite naive. Some of the things for which you give America credit, are IMHO, things for which they do not deserve credit. For one, America did *not* save the world from being Germany! Twenty million Russians helped a bit there too, not to mention the Europeans who bore the load while the USA partied, came in at the finish and took the credit, especially in the eyes of the young, naive and uninvolved!
>>I was for removing Hussain but only as a pre-emptive measure in case terrorists acquired nuclear weapons, (regardless of the false appraisal of the situation in Iraq by the Americans) and also to help their people acquire more democratic sovereignty.<<
Whatever *do* you mean here? The only nuclear power in the Middle East is Israel. SH did not have nukes, and if he had, would not give them to terrorists. There is no connection between SH and OBL - they cordially hated each other, as SH was resolutely secular.

They did, zoomer.

I won't object to that, unless my knowlegde is infinite, I would say 100% that I am naive in some way.

Yes I do understand about the Russian effort. I mean I've read historical accounts. You know the tank divisions of Hitler were no match for superior Russian ones. Ruskies tend to be very resourceful and able to withstand harsh conditions, Hitler's problems escalated in freezing conditions with machinery and less resilient troops. The Russians outdid them in this area. Anyway..

My contention is that had Japan been more victorious and held off the attack on America, they could have taken the Asian region and fought an offensive against Russia from that area combined with Hitler, slowly conquering all of the Euro-Asia Area along with England. The US would have then been trapped both East and West across the oceans provided Russia fell. But its still all speculation.

In the end, I think without the effort of the USA (we all know how late they came in and how they always win the war in their portrayals) the world today would have been a very different place. Lets not forget the race to get the 'A bomb' between Germany and The US. Japan made a mistake, they were too eager.

SH was a secular dictator true and OBL a spiritual leader however OBL cannot be solely equated with terrorism. Supply to anybody is the problem. Money is all that is needed to acquire most things in the world, regardless of politics or religion. It is very hard to police the where abouts of WOMD if they are not under the lock and key of a stable government.

Rogue nations tend to cause problems because they allow the harbouring of elements that can lead to these sorts of things. SH tried to acquire nuclear facitlities in the 80's and indeed he has even been in liason with US Secretary Rumsfeld as well as the French and Germans, it is public knowledge.
They also had a nuclear plant that was summarly destroyed by a raid of Israely 'F16s'. In my opinion, there could have been a source of nuclear arms in Iraq if SH was left unchecked from the 80's onward and I believe that at some stage, terrorists of some description would have acquired them.

[BC]

No, OO and Captain Obvious (what a remarkably inappropriate name...) I haven't *done a runner* I'm working, something you seem to be unaquainted with. In fact, the Russians did more damage to Nazi Germany than the US, go look it up if you aren't reading some revisionist US history book. As to who won the war, it was in fact a group, something resembling the UN, which currently is in disfavour in your narrow views. As to the media and my involvement, I make commercials, documentaries, comedy, and musical productions within the network and particular station I work for. My concern was my association, which you might want to look at concerning yourselves before you hitch your wagon blindly.

All of which would be apparent to both of you if you removed your heads from your @rses far enough that your eyes cleared your sphincters- think, read the backlog, and the sites of those who post. Or alternately, find some carefree site where idiocy is accepted.

Snowball fight!

btw, OO-

*EDITOR: "WHY NO NEWS?"
CORESPONDENT: "NO NEWS GOOD NEWS!"
EDITOR: "NO NEWS NO JOB"
EDITOR: "MAKE NEWS"*

I'm sure in your country, which produces large amounts of paper wrap for fish and chips, this may in fact be true. As it probably is in the *embedded news* world of the US.

The independent world news, the free, uninvolved, and generally not politically motivated press of the rest of the world laughs at your narrow minded, provincial, uninformed view of the world. Stand up and be counted, but don't make the Peter Pan leaps you do without the tiniest of proof you depend on, free of truth.

Because you are discussing the military might and the making of news I thought you may like to read this.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2003/12/12_518.html
News in the issue that is not in the current Script;

There is a definite push (by neocons) to privitize the US military more than it is now.

There is a commentary about dumping Chaney, might win GWB some votes. It will not change the overall plan.

http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df12182003.html
High tech erasing of war costs figures on websites.
Gov wrongly claims they would have been charged for keeping the figures on the site.

Hey Abbi

I have seen the same type of scrubbing of information all over the net since 9/11. Maps of public electricity, water, and gas supplies. Also, information concerning the Nevada test sites has vanished. Sometimes I will go across a government site and an icon will come up that says "your request was recieved, yet do to content has been denied." Is that a crock or what? Thanks for the web sites

Adelle

nice broadside zoomer. Didn't have time to come up with separate posts, so you just lumped us together? I guess generalizations and simplifications are the lubrications for TV...so why bother with anything more complicated anywhere else?

I thought for sure you'd blame the US for the Nazi death camps. Are you sure you don't? That really isn't like you. Come on, there has to be a way, a conspiracy theory at least to which you subscribe, that has the US wholly at fault.

I believe in you zoomer, you can do it!

Dave

This day I had an English woman in Moscow and a guy in Canada tell me what I should do, what I should know about life in and around Europe The day has come at last. Boy...and have I waited?

My God where have I been. I've been dreaming. I can't believe it.
I'm on the BBC website in the UK and it's 2004. Boy this netcasting stuff really empowers folks. Good job were all supervised and vetted. Hate to think what could be posted up here.

Dynamite in the wrong hands!

Long live democracy and free speech!
Rock On Surfers.

Oetzi, if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Dave, if you respond to a humorous post that had a nugget of truth in it with:

*of course YOU did, zoomer, of course you did. And didn't you also beleive that the Jew's were massacred in upstate NY, and their remains secretly moved to Germany by the US govt?*

You should expect some venom. Do you doubt that the Russians had more to do with the downfall of Nazi Germany than the US? 6.1 million dead for Russia as compared to 300,000 for the US? Have a look for yourself:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

And materiel damage? The Germans committed 3 million soldiers, 3580 tanks, 7184 artillery guns, 1830 planes, and 750,00 horses. It could be argued that the Russians commited to a war of attrition due to the *Scorched Earth* policy but the figures of Russian losses belie that argument.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/russia.htm

Do you want to talk about how difficult Leningrad was? The suffering of the Russian people? From that same link, a soldier who fought in southern Russia :
"I watched my mother and father die. I knew perfectly well that they were starving. But I wanted their bread more than I wanted them to stay alive. And they knew that. That’s what I remember about the blockade (of Leningrad) : that feeling that you wanted your parents to die because you wanted their bread."



That offhand remark that Russia won the war was not entirely flippant. I *do* dislike revisionism, I *do* think that the US unjustifiably takes credit for the entire war, and I *will* respond in kind when provoked.

Can we allow for some partial credit then, Zoomer?

When I was in graduate school in the late 1970s, the revisionist histories that were coming out credited Russia with stopping Germany's Eastward thrust, and then pushing the Germans all the way back to Berlin. Russian troops reached Berlin before those of the allies could.

Meanwhile, there was a war going on in the Pacific Ocean. Hirohito advised the Japanese to surrender after nuclear bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't think anybody but the U.S. takes credit for dropping those bombs. Japan and Germany were allies.
World wars aren't generally over until all the allies have laid down their weapons.

I doubt that any one country could have had the resources to defeat both Germany and Japan. The U.S. was still in a Depression at the time, not exactly at the peak of its capacity.


Is the Second World War still relevant to defining what America's characteristics are today? I doubt that more than a handful of H2G2's researchers were alive then. I remember a little about the "duck and cover" exercises and the air-raid drills in the 1950s, when I was in grade school. These were pale shadows of actual air raids, or so I gather.

What's up Zoom...feeling a bit ashamed of your privelege?
Not sure at all for the venom. You like the odd pogram eh?

Nah zoomer, I was just hopping you could do better. I'm still waiting for proof that the whole thing was the US's fault. Nothing less will suffice.

People have made the posts before - it wasn't the fact that the US took the heaviest beating and won, it was the fact that the allies would have lost without the US. That's not to diminish the contribution or suffering of the other allies. But that's the basis of the argument. Post all you want about how others lost more, but you're not addressing the argument, you're sidestepping.

Now, how about something grittier. Instead of just attacking the US revision of history, and teaching us all how little we contributed, how about some blame for the whole thing, especially the attrocities committed everwhere. Surely it has to be the fault of the US?

dave

Sorry to interject here to respond to adelle-
I understand the reasoning for some of the things you mentioned being removed.

These were figures telling the tax payers(voters) the cost for the war. With private companies taking up so much of the work (added to deaths toll also GWB points out) ,it seems crucial to know who is financing what and how.

I wonder how the life insurance works for those killed in Iraq that are contractors? I still cannot figure out how an act of war is included since that used to be the last sentance to all insurance companies Not Paying out.
The towers and airlines lawsuits seemed to have changed that so I now wonder about the biz contracts. *confused*

Fact is Adelle...the money folks are a bit confused. It seems the French Goverment have underwritten a few policies in California. So Bush has 'em snookered. With the USA in defecit I'm afraid your finances are...well..uncertain. Sorry

Hi Della

"I must say I think you are quite naive"

what a nice way to great someone new to the coversation forum! Remind me to try that next time someone I disagree with arrives.

dave

WE NEED MORE WOMEN ON THIS READ.
Too many egotists on the man front.
Tough and smart women wanted!

*That's not to diminish the contribution or suffering of the other allies.*

Dave, Dave, Dave- that's exactly what you are doing. With typical arrogance you see the pointing out that other countries contributed more as an attack on the US. That is *exactly* what we are talking about here.

*it was the fact that the allies would have lost without the US*

Oh, and they wouldn't have lost without the Russians, or the UK, or the Free French, or Canada, or Australia.....

Don't you see what you are saying here? *We won for you guys* What incredible arrogance, what monumental gall. Just the kind of attitude that make Dubya believe that his was the only way, despite diplomatic options or the UN.

Strap on yer irons, buddy, you're the new sherif.