h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sarge

I wasn't trying to say that you can't make it from scratch, just that in fact Bill Gates didn't. The details of my life are inconsequential...but I grew up in a rural environment, my dad is a high school teacher, my mom also worked at the high school. The money for college came from my grandparents. So I was an odd mix of middle class, and then some privledge. I would say the workload at MIT is nothing like the Ivy's (at least for the undergrads, I'm a grad). MIT can't afford to let someone in if they're not qualified - they'll get destroyed.

Let me give you a funny anecdote. MIT & Harvard both have Intramural hockey, 6 leagues. The MIT league ranks are D-, D, D+, C, B, A. The Harvard leagues are B-,B,B+,A-,A,A+. Also, 95% of Harvard undergrads graduate "with honors". Not only are they all exceptionally smart (every year), but they're also great hockey players!!!

I know what you mean about abusive law suits, but where do you draw the line? You can't. And some of the legislation that is lobbied through congress definetely seems to favor big biz to much, even unfairly.

dave

Yes Dave same here in the UK: for Ivy use "Oxbridge" for MIT use "redbrick" for the rest use "rehabilitation".

If only I could have gotten into Yale, I would now be twice as smart as I am. Instead, I went to a state university.

Good discussion

I can only add that not all jobs that go out of the US are low paying jobs that no one else will do.

Higher level computer industry jobs have also left. The people making good salaries in IT just a few years ago have lost their jobs to India. Many telecomunications jobs are done in India. Now India can consume more of American culture by buying more products.

An Indiana(us) plant that made a part for missles in the defense Dept factory was sent to China. The town will die without an industry. I believe the active element in the missle tip is a dangerous one that enemies might take advantage of. I find that worrisome.

Wally world has plans to build in many other countries for the first time. The got big by saying they are American and sell American (um when they can)They have made their low cost partly by hiring illegals to clean. They pay their employees low and discourage full time workers with benefits. How does this help anyone but Wall Mart?

Bush called Home Depot an example of small business in America
That is a real blow to ones in the truly small business world within the US!

dave said: 'JD - it sounds like you were saying that present trends can't continue b/c we're going to run out resources. You are aware that starting about 100 years ago economists have been predicting this, but that it never seems to happen when they think it will, or for the reason it will. There was a great quote in the economist, from a Saudi oil minister of about 20 years ago "The stone age didn't end for lack of stone," nor will the oil age end for lack of oil.'

An excellent point that begs the question, "why didn't the stone age end for lack of stone?" The reason is because of a large technological advance that changed the age (I'm thinking of metalworking here). IMO, the reason that resources haven't run out as expected is that it is particularly difficult if not impossible to accurately predict technological advances. What one *can* predict is how a society will value education and innovative thinking - the very things that lead to technological advances. BTW, these aren't my original ideas, I get a lot of this philosophy (sorry to steal that term, philosophers) from reading Isaac Asimov, among others. I think that what saves economies (and thus resources) is technology. Of course, it can also destroy them. The next greatest technological advance that will change the world will be in energy. (Again, not my prediction, but one I can't argue with and one I repeat a lot.) Gads, I'm sounding like a lecturer - sorry 'bout that, I'm sure people know about this stuff besides me.

Nice to see this thread back to something more interesting and worthwhile again!

- JD

Yes Abbi.
In the UK we have ASDA store which is part of Walmart.
Dell, your computer manufacturer, has had mixed success
I believe with overseas call centres. I think that your
S Carolina accent was better for the direct sales operation they run.

Same in the UK though, lots of call centres closing and going to India on the sub-continent of Asia. Not such a culture shock for us because our urban areas are well populated by Asian folks with Asian and local accents.

But I must say that you seem to have more choice and lower prices for consumer goods. I know because I compare the price of power tools on the net. I like MILWAUKEE tools. They have several european affiliates that I am familiar with. In the USA you pay only about 60% of the cost to us. Indeed the Wisconsin firm sends me a birthday card every year. I love it!

Gradually the big corporations are "mopping up" here in the UK. But if you seek you will find the odd firm here and there. Because this is an island the size of New York state it is easy for the "big boys" to rule.

Thanks for your kind comments about the debate!

"Same in the UK though, lots of call centres closing and going to India on the sub-continent of Asia. Not such a culture shock for us because our urban areas are well populated by Asian folks with Asian and local accents"

It's not a culture shock because of the accent, it's more the intricacies of passing information. In a previous job I used to deal with Delhi on a frequent basis. The people on the other end of the phone line were all professionals but the language barrier was a huge problem. Put simply, we all knew what we were doing but couldn't tell each other about it clearly.

There have also been massive rises in the complaint levels against call and service centres that have been relocated. It's an example of service suffering to cut costs.

I've been too lazy to put myself on the national "do not call" registry, so I get a fair number of phone calls from telemarketers.
Lately, I notice that quite a few of them are from people whose accents are so thick, I can't tell what they're saying. I don't put up with that for very long. If they want me to buy something, they'd better be clear about what it is.

Gradient....what's your home/cutural base?
Is it not obvious that the average caller would encounter communication problems with folks from another continent?

How about Africa? That's another continent (unless it's an incontinent). I get recurring emails from somebody in Nigeria who wants me to aprticipate in some kind of money-laundering scheme. It is so manifestly fraudulent that I don't even bother to reply.

Free markets are a good thing. I like 'em. the trouble is the MBAs are not bright enough to please the market and the shareholders all at the same time..a hoot, but tough for those caught in the restructures.

Tovar?

Well JD from what I've seen, you're right - the research funding is either for energy or bio/health. What's left over is computing. You gotta be working on something related to one of those three now-a-days...

dave

I'm British, recently emigrated to the USA.

It's obvious to you and I that there may be problems dealing with someone on another continent but to the average caller, all they know is that they are dialling a local telephone number and have no idea they are being routed to another country. It often comes as a surprise, and an unpleasant one.

Let's not forget: the reason that jobs are farmed out to developing/less developed nations is you don't have to pay Indian call center ops the same as you would for the UK. Two years ago, the average call center op was earning about 14K sterling. A technical helpdesk op could earn between 16 and 19K a year. Wages in India are nowhere near that high, so the thoughts of shipping consumer culture to India are misleading - the work has moved in search of cheap labour and people who are so poor that a breadline wage for the UK/USA is a king's ransom.

Adam Smith 1667
QED

The women like him... Oetzi dear, speak for yourself! (Oops, you're not a woman are you. So how would you know what one thinks?)

>>Maybe some far off day we will show that same consideration for our young men and no longer need the draft.
But alas, I can only hope that Harmony is in the horizion.<<
Adelle, I am with you in most of your post, especially that part which I have c-and-ped.
Della the woman ('sister' of the other Adele. )

Ah, the Nigerian scam emails... they are *everywhere*, including here in NZ, where some people have actually fallen for them. So but also so funny.
I love the ones that promises to increase the size of my (non-existent, me being a woman and all) wenis.

Wal-Mart is one of those places that we all love to hate. Its business practices are reprehensible. Once Wal-Mart moves into a town every mom and pop store in the neighbourhood is gone, they cannot compete. Hell I used to go grocery shopping at Wal-Mart because it was the cheapest place around, including the Commissary, which is supposed to be one of the benefits that us military folks get. Wal-Mart beating a supposedly non-profit supermarket. I do try to patronize the local shops as much as possible, for most other things I turn to the net. Yes, capitalism has gone rampant. There is really only one benefit I can see through it all. War. War between industrial nations would be next to impossible now because we are all so economically co-dependent that it would be economic suicide. Japan didn't need an army, they rebuilt the empire through automobiles and electronic goods.
As far as call centres go this is nothing new. I remember reading an article almost a decade ago about phone reps in India being coached in mid-western accents to mask the fact that the calls are coming from India. Guess the program did not work out too well if ya'll are having such problems talking to these people.

1) Low wages paid in third world countries are fortunes in that country, better that than no, or low wages paid, it is good for the country and the people who live there.

2) At the same time, those are wages that could be paid to workers in the *mother* country if the international corporation would be willing to support the lower wage earners. The problem is that, if not, the corporations expect these same low wage earners to *upgrade* to high tech positions which is a pie in the sky dream in most cases, and a costly dream in others.

3) Multinationals like Walmart have a tragic flaw which is that consumer wants are on the whole for cheap prices and reasonable service *until* the consumer reaches a point where they have the smallest disposable income point. Then they want variety and something different from *Mr. Jones next door*. *Then* they want something more, which is only provided by entrepreneurs that were originally pushed out by the multinationals.

4) The final flaw of multinationals is that they are cumbersome, uninventive, and slow to respond to real time changes. This is why they *eat* smaller businesses, to try and make themselves competitive.

5) The only responsive political system is one with social awareness, something left of centre, otherwise the economic system will feed the multinational or big business template until it collapses.

Well Well Well.

It seems that I have found a very exciting platform and educational center for myself. I guess good things DO come to those who search like hell. A few questions and coments in regards to recent posts.
Oetzi- thanks for the positive feedback. Nice to know we can all have our opinions and listen to each other without blowing up anything !
Gradient "[third parties] get little in the way of publicity" Absolutly! I am still on the search for more information on this topic. My interest has just recently peaked in this area. I am always on the search for third parties and even people whom I'd vote for in the existing ones. I would love to know if there is a UK publication available that discusses our systems. I am always open to read anything that will give me another pespective.
Seargnt Flipper- Beast?! Cadet J.A. White class of 2004. I am proud to say that he is a great man who understands that all people should accept responsibility for ones actions. We can thank an outstanding grandfather for that. "There is only one benifit I can see through it all. War" Lack of you mean? I am interested in your opinions on the nessesity to fight for our freedoms vs. nessesity to go to war. Are you saying that war is an unfortunate outcome of conflict or a good policy decision? I ask these same questions of any military persons for I am on the search for my opinions on these topics daily. Thanks for the feedback my friend.
Captain Obvious- on the subject of Vietnam. I learned basic dates and policy issues. Sad to say that my bigest first impresion was from re-runs of MASH. I had a fabulous history teacher back in high school who knew a whole lot about WWII. He was a vet and would correct the information in our texts. Of course I learned most of Vietnam from my grandfather. He told me about combat and why he thought we were there and how he felt about the misinformation the government gave the public. He made me question my ideals and opinions about war. Mostly he taught me to hold myself accountable by voting and trying to learn about EVERYTHING. As far as my college studies I took alot of government classes so I did most of my other history research on my own. I feel that it is the most important subject ever because it gives us a 20/20 view on our past desisions. I wish our education systems were set up like the Greeks. They had this concept called Padiea. It was based on educating the person on Self as opposed to education of a Trade. Greeks wanted people to be informed members of society and wanted there citizens to know themselves so they could make decisions with clarity of self. In adition to that they were taught a trade. I feel our (USA) public education system is set up to crank out factory workers. Cramming facts and dates and formulas into our youth to teach them to follow the rules to get a specific outcome. Very Goal oriented instead of Process oriented. I can remember clearly times in school where I would come up with the "right answer" yet without the prescribed formulas- and always my grade would reflect my "inability" to follow the rules. It never occured to them that my brain mught just work different. This is why I think the Arts is so very important. Encourage children to think and create for themselves. I wonder sometimes if that is exactly why our schools are finding their arts funding being cut. Are we wanting to choke out the next generations of free thinkers? I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me.
Blickybadger- Are we not the largest wepons seller in the world? Hum? Then why are we so surprised that there is so much conflic. Sell them the guns, let them fight, go in later and help rebuild- with US builders of course. Sounds as if we make money on both ends. How unfortunate. It effects the GDP in a positive way- that must be why we condone it.
Cat woman- what exactly does c-and-ped mean?

Bless each of you and I look foward to future conversations.
Adelle