h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Charlotte-

This is scary. We keep having the same thoughts. I'll just let you do the talking from now on...

'Dubya esse delendam' - I think it was Cato who concluded all of his speeches by saying 'Cartago esse delendam', meaning 'Catargo must be destroyed' (and I mean this ONLY AS A JOKE!!! ONLY ON A PURELY POLITICAL BASIS!! OKAY EVERYBODY?!). Maybe this is not appropiate at this time.

We should stick together.

Oh Howl! I am ROTFLMAO! I also should have remembered that from History of Western Civ. The only one I do remember is "Nolite te bastardes de carborundorum". (don't let the b******s get you down)

"I don't think we should allow Congress to do whatever the heck it wants.
"

Congress doesn't get to do whatever the heck it wants. It is *incredibly* difficult for congress to make any changes whatsoever to the constitution.

The Constitution is changed today mostly through interpretation by the courts. Which is why the Supreme Court was created.

When we elect politicians who stack the courts with conservatives then we are stacking the courts against ourselves. Conservatives have shown a marked favoritism for business over the individul, so much so that individual rights and liberties have been slashed. Why don't we have a patients bill of right? Because conservatives don't want the patient to have more rights than the doctors and insurance companies. When Canada went social with their medical system the American Medical Association funded the opposition. Why? Didn't want to set a bad example for us Americans and lead us to believe that we were entitled to quality healthcare as a basic human right rather than on an As Can Pay basis.

The conservatives are stripping us of our right against search and seizure, free speech, and the right to protest. Here in America, land of the free, protesters were arrested BEFORE going to a protest, as a pre-emptive strike to keep it from happening. Who can we appeal to when those rights, CONSTITUTIONAL rights, are stepped on? The state is against us, and the courts are stacked with folks who put the government above the individual.

Or worse, put the opinions of a few religious individuals above the rights of the majority and vastly diversely religious individuals. There is some judge who insists on keeping the ten commandments in his courtroom, where it most definitely does not belong.

Narrow adherence to the Constitution will hurt us all and cost us all.

"This is scary. We keep having the same thoughts. I'll just let you do the talking from now on..."

You flatterer. But please, don't stay out on account of me. I don't know everything, I only act like I do.

TBTPM (post 514) -

I really don't have a lot of energy to do much more than keep trying to get us to amicably agree to disagree. But a couple more points:

I knew it was Kennesaw - we should do a meet-up at the Cracker Barrel; I'll be the long-haired hippie weirdo pleading (once again) for a vegetarian option - because that family member I mentioned (the one who uses marijuana to combat depression and ED because the 'official' meds play hell with hir system) moved from there a few months ago because of that gun decree. ('Optional'? I'll have to pass that one on...)

Also: over ten years ago I was making (if I'm remembering an earlier post of yours correctly) over 25% more than you are now. This week I started my second year with an organization that can only hire me for eight months of the year, and I make less than half of what you do. I cannot begin to tell you how much happier I am now - it was not 'poor decision-making' on my part; it was not 'failure'. It has worked for me - someone else might need some help, and I have no problem helping them. Sure, fraud happens - but isn't it better to take a chance on a few bad apples rather than get rid of the whole barrel?

While I was putting myself through six years of college, I was on food stamps for a few months. I feel no shame; I am glad I haven't needed it since; I feel better knowing it's there if the unforeseen happens and I need it again.

The news just this minute reported that gun sales in the US have doubled since Tuesday. *That* makes me very frightened. Guns were invented to kill things - nothing else - and more guns create the likelihood for more killing. ("My gun can beat up your gun!") All the rhetoric on the subject is simply target justification. If you ever think you need to defend *me*, please take your guns somewhere else. Thanks.

-7rob7
'How many deaths will it take 'till (s/he) knows, that too many people have died?'
- Bob Dylan

'If you ever think you need to defend *me*, please take your guns somewhere else.'

Hmm. Find it a bit difficult to agree with this one. If I ever need to be defended, I don't think I'd send anybody away - including TBTPM (ESPECIALLY TBTPM, considering his experience with this sort of thing...)

I don't think money is the only way to gauge success. I do my job because I like it. I suspect I could do quite well now if I had pursued database adminstration, which is sort of what I was training myself to be at one point.

My wife and I have always made our way on our own. We didn't even take unemployment when we left the Army.

I don't go to Cracker Barrells. Sorry, I'm still trying to get over a story about a Cracker Barrell that I heard in a Domestic Terrorism class.

TBTPM, you said in an earlier post:
"I don't buy the argument that marijuana is a medication. States are supposed to have general legislative authority to govern their own affairs. If they want to outlaw it, that's their business."

You'd think so, wouldn't you; sounds perfectly reasonable. Except that when states like California and Washington pass laws to LEGALIZE medical use of marijuana, the Government says "No Way!".

CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Either States can decide or they can't. Or is it only their right when their position agrees with yours?

* * * * * * *

As for welfare/food assistance (stamps):

My husband once got laid off from a job about 2 hours after I had picked up his weekly check, cashed it and paid bills with it. We had $47 in the bank, and he had no job, with absolutely no warning -- they decided that the architectural project could be finished up by "senior personnel" and he was no longer needed. We were newly married, I was still a student and we had no savings.

We went to the public assistance office that afternoon and applied for food stamps, on an emergency basis, which we received, paying a rate something like "$1 for $3" for them. We then went to the unemployment office and started trying to find jobs. Michael did find a job, three weeks later. When the food stamp people sent a formal application for permanent assistance and the next lot of chits, we told them "Thank you for the assistance, the emergency is over, we don't need them anymore", and returned them. Or tried to! Do you know it took us SIX MONTHS to get them off our backs, with their very intrusive paperwork and threats about continuing on the program.

Food Stamps are supposed to be a temporary aid, not a permanent program. I think the system itself, in my experience, wants people dependent on them; it's THEIR job security!

SC

If a state wants to legalize marijuana, then it can. There are federal laws agaisnt possession. I think the feds should defer to the states in this matter, as I already said. However, if there's a federal law agaisnt it, then its still illegal. It's part of living in a federal system.

That's a problem with the whole welfare system. It breeds dependence, when this nation is supposed to be about independence. I think of it as a vote buying scheme. As long as the dependnt vote for democrats, the democrats will take money from successful people, and give it to people who aren't.

sorry but I missed the bit where anyone claimed Britain to be better than anywhere else...
Are you revealing your own predjudices here?

I missed that bit, too. Actually, Canada is better than anywhere else, unless, of course, you happen to be a Canadian

Seriously, this tiny little planet is better than anywhere else, because it is all we have, and unless we can eliminate global terrorism - everywhere - this poor little planet may just end up as the property of the cockroaches.

Peace

"That's a problem with the whole welfare system. It breeds dependence, when this nation is supposed to be about independence. I think of it as a vote buying scheme. As long as the dependnt vote for democrats, the democrats will take money from successful people, and give it to people who aren't."

This is also one of the big differences also between our parties. The attitude about dependence and the abused wealthy being bled dry to feather the beds of the undeserving poor is one view.

The other is that folks ought to be taxed according to what they have, ie, the rich more, the poor less,(as opposed to our current system where the poor pay the majority of the taxes and the wealthy get huge tax shelters) and that whenever possible we should give support and help to those citizens who have fallen on hard times.

*Most* people in this country are at best one or two paychecks away from homelessness. They survive from paycheck to paycheck just making ends meet. If there is a medical emergency or someone loses his/her job then they are very quickly living on the streets.

So I'll say it again, It is our responsibility to help our citizens in times of financial hardship. That is what being a nation is all about. Not just socking your money into your mattress and damn the little rodent next to you who is now foraging in trash cans for dinner.

You never know when the rodent might be you.

And welfare takes many, many guises. Someone who would rather cut their hand off before asking for foodstamps might feel fine about taking disaster relief if his/her business was wiped out by a hurricane/tornado or earthquake. THAT is welfare too, like it or not. As are government subsidies to businesses, farms, and families for education. There's a whole lot of welfare going on all over the place. Its terrible to hate the poor just because they are poor.

I had to sign off H2G2 last night and get my column out (a little scribble I contribute to the newsletter of my non-profit) so I didn't hang around to clarify my position on welfare.

As it stands now, it still does not work! Those in the system have to make a huge leap to get out from under it. When they do find a job, their "benefit" amounts are cut to equal the amount of funds they had BEFORE they became employed! This STINKS! There is absolutely no incentive, actually DISincentive to leave the program. The result is that people were staying on the dole, because they were actually poorer as a result of working than not. When you work, you have to find child-care and pay for it. When you don't work, at least you can save the cash and care for your children yourself.

For the work-fare system to succeed, this has to be remedied. If benefits must be cut, it should take into account the expenses of working: increased amounts spent for commuting to work, for child-care, assistence to pay for training to increase earning power. Then, as the earning power goes up, you can taper off benefits. Most of us did not start out with our first job paying at least $10 an hour, which is what I estimate a single mother would have to make, to provide living expenses for herself and her child(ren).

Minimum wage takes time to work your way out of: I didn't work for several years before my husband died, because I was caring for him. When I went back to work, in the last year of his life, we were barely making it on his Social Security Disability Income, combined with what I made. I almost could not support myself after his death, on my income (about $6 an hour), and loss of his benefits.

TBTPM, it ain't as easy as you think.
Folk living on the dole as a way of life is now on the way out, and emergency assistance should always be available. More than that, will take time.

PEACE, guy.

SC

The poor pay most of the taxes? How do you figure that? Unless you consider the lottery a tax. In a way it is sort of tax on stupidity.

Scarcely more than half the people in this country still pay taxes. Everytime somone cuts taxes, more people fall off of the tax rolls. The rich and the middle class are the ones who pay the bills for our government.

I forgot to say, I'd be glad to have a meet. We've tried arranging them from time to time over at the Southeast US Researchers' Group (Mark II) http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A583760.

We should meet. I'll be the one with concealed weapon.

Although I support the idea of Welfare there is a big problem in the UK, inherrant in the system, which makes the individuals whole life revolve around Social Security (as we call it), and once in it takes up all your time to survive on welfare so it becomes harder to get out, personally i've claimed welfare on many occasions, and i think it should be easier to claim and more widely available, it should alow people to get on with their lives, be a method of continueing to move on when one needs it, so one can look for work, re-train, get over whatever personal hurdles one needs to. It should not be a dead end from which one cannot escape, and in the UK certainly it's a Kafkaesque experience.

Ok, TBTPM -

I've submitted my credentials to the SE group. Will that be a gun in your pocket, or will you just be glad to see me?

(Cracker Barrel = Domestic Terrorism?!?!??!! I *knew* the food was awful, but this?!? Or maybe the reference was to their hostile and discriminatory opinion of gays...)

The events of Tuesday continue to deep-fry my brain, and I haven't the energy to debate welfare (which has been far better explained by others, anyway) or gun control (notice that only the NRA defines 'control' as 'confiscation'), so I won't for now.

The fact that we all *can* debate this is, I think, one of the things that's 'right' with Americans. And I have also realized that you and I are in complete agreement in that we view the government as a functionary of the people. It's only in the extent of the function that we disagree.

-7rob7

I apologize in advance for the length of this!

TBTPM, do me a little favor, please: In the United States, when someone runs for a public office, such as President or Vice President, I believe that their previous year's tax record is opened to public scrutiny. Most of the people running for President, etc. are fairly well off, wouldn't you say?

Okay, next step: do a search on G**gle, or whatever your favorite searchbot is; find the aforementioned information, best bet is probably a synopsis in a newspaper article. Next, go to the bottom line, under Total income and set that amount aside. Then, go to Total tax paid.

Take the tax paid amount (and by all means include the amount that was paid for state and local tax, if it's there), then take the total income amount and divide it into the first amount. We can argue over niggling little things like social security tax and state disability tax, but they all have caps and after a certain point you don't pay more. Then do the same with your tax return. I can guarantee that they paid a lower percentage of their income than you did. I have done this, and I paid more.

Now, it's an American pasttime to pay as little as you can; we all try for that. But when someone is very wealthy, there are ways to sidestep taxation which are not available or even possible for your average wage slave.

For the non-Americans reading this, a thumbnail sketch of the tax code:
As the taxation system stands at this point in time, unless you own a home (one that you OWE MONEY ON) you will not even be likely to pass the breakeven point in itemizing your deductions versus being resigned to taking the standard deduction. If you pass that golden portal, you can deduct all kinds of things which aren't even available if you can't: Any interest paid on your home loan (usually the biggie), medical costs including medical insurance premiums if you can afford getting any (the 7.5% test is fairly easy to surpass, especially when figuring the various costs for more than one person), charitable contributions including some church donations, state income tax paid (balanced against any state income tax retund which the feds consider income but which the state will then deduct from your gross income when you pay the state), and numerous other deductions for educational expenses, unreimbursed work expenses, some child care, basically any costs you incur in the earning of the income for which you are being taxed. If you don't pass the portal, you get a standard deduction and a personal exemption, which last year came to $7400 off your total income when figuring taxes. You CAN choose to itemize anyway, but if you're deductions don't come to $7400 you'll pay MORE, obviously.

Resuming the original program:
When someone has a lower income, they get a percentage taken off their income too, and a lower tax rate. BUT they live closer to the line -- the dollars they are left with are more precious because they have less of them to meet BASIC expenses.

Bill Gates will NEVER have to stop and think before he uses his ATM card, wondering if he even has the $20 in his account!

SC
a former tax preparer and current wage slave.

"Scarcely more than half the people in this country still pay taxes. Everytime somone cuts taxes, more people fall off of the tax rolls. The rich and the middle class are the ones who pay the bills for our government."

People start owing taxes after their first $5 of income; check your tax table from last year, TBTPM. The standard deduction/personal exemption per taxpayer is $7200, (I apologize for the inaccurate figure in my previous post, I was overly optimistic in my recollection! ) so you can say that effectively, no tax is owed if your income is lower than $7200. Could YOU live on that in America? Not everyone is married, or has kids, and anyway, as you know it costs more per person to live a year, than the dependent exemption allows. The taxes are not dropping off the bottom of the tax rate.

As for the lottery, ask a teacher if those monies have increased the funds coming into the education system's budget. If they teach in California they can tell you that the state has reduced educational funding in proportion to however much money they estimate they will receive from the lottery, thus leaving the school system statewide with exactly as much money as they were getting before, but with state imposed limitations on what they can spend the lottery portion on!!!

SC

I'd love to go to the SE meetup; unfortunately, the researchers could be dead of old age before I could save up enough for the travel!

uh, i living in America do have some points to make, i have no experience with foriegn countries other than mexico and canada so ill confine my opinions to ones about the US. First, where i live, pennsylvania, there are alot of fat and rude people that teach their kids to be fat and rude also. Not everyone is fat and rude however, America has a fair share of very smart and nice people(i think everyone will agree). Morals and the ability to use an "inside voice" are going downhill quickly too. But, Other than that i tend to think it is a decent place to live. there are parts of America where discrimination against minorities is still sadly rampant. But as far as an inability to get an education or job, thats pretty much equal for any race. anywho thats a synopsised opinion

uh, i living in America do have some points to make, i have no experience with foriegn countries other than mexico and canada so ill confine my opinions to ones about the US. First, where i live, pennsylvania, there are alot of fat and rude people that teach their kids to be fat and rude also. Not everyone is fat and rude however, America has a fair share of very smart and nice people(i think everyone will agree). Morals and the ability to use an "inside voice" are going downhill quickly too. But, Other than that i tend to think it is a decent place to live. there are parts of America where discrimination against minorities is still sadly rampant. But as far as an inability to get an education or job, thats pretty much equal for any race. anywho thats a synopsised opinion