h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Is Scotland viable as an independant nation

#59.

Nothing will replace the UK. It's done its job. Time to leave it to history. It's only function now is military. It serves no other purpose.

#60

My knowledge of the dynamics and demographics of Australia are admittedly limited, but I understand they are very different from Scotland.

The diversity is much wider and populations more diverse.

Scotland, like the rest of the UK is governed by fear and rhetoric.

Catchy slogans replace reason.

Decisions can be based upon something no more important than the result of a football game or misplaced reputations.

Europe is a good example. Probably a majority in England would vote tomorrow for separation, based upon a general belief that the EU continually passes stupid and pointless regulations.

In reality, this is simply not so. As evidenced by England being the state doing almost all of the complaining.

The biggest annoyance for most EU states toward England is that it never actually does anything apart from complain.

It's the UK bureaucracy that is petty and expensive. Rhetoric and fear, mostly promoted by the press, have created a situation where only negative claims are now believed.

The challenge of the Yes campaign is to keep people focused upon issues. The No campaign seems to be relying upon repeated, often false claims of what cannot be done.

The issue of the pound is a case in point. The No people are repeatedly claiming Scotland can't use the pound. Yet in reality, Scotland can and will. There is nothing anyone can do about that.

How will that work then? An independent Scotland forces monetary union on a foreign country? The value of a currency is dependent on the assets and output of the country.

Of course Scotland could use the pound in many ways. Scotland could link the value of the UK pound. And here are plenty of countries that use 'foreign' currency - the dollar is quite popular. However, so far as I am aware, Cambodia have no say in USA fiscal policy.

And I can see that UK residents will start to refuse to accept them in exchange for goods. A minor issue I know but it would add a degree of complication that nobody wants.

Wouldn't continued joint use of the pound be rather like my ex-wife and I continuing to use the same bank account. The Pink Paisley pound is dependent on the value of MY assets and income - not hers or our joint ones.

There is already a facility for the issue of Scottish bank notes. So would the UK have a veto on the issue of more of them than could be supported by the UK?

If the yes campaign win, I think we can look forward to many years of legal wrangling.

And to stay on-topic, I'd be sorry to lose my Craig Armstrong albums, but have never been tempted to buy any Moira Stewart.

PP.

ANDERSON! Moira Anderson!

Bludding foreigners all look the same to me.

Now. How about those Commitments CDs............

PP.

Think you'll find that Scots bank notes are frequently refused in shops already.

But the question of how the Scots currency will work is simple really, just as it does now.

The Scots already have the pound. It isn't some singular possession, like a house, where the deeds are in the name of the UK. It's a unit of currency, used by Scotland long before the 18th century union was ever imagined

The point of the currency union, as I understand it, was to ease the flow of goods between England and Scotland.

This discussion has kinda gone off the rails now.

As interesting as the consequences for Scotland are, what matter and will matter to the rest of us, are the consequences.

I will start another thread on this point. I wish the Scots the best of course, but their problems are their own.

indeed I've had scottish notes refused in english shops a few times and have had to go to the bank and exchange them
which is quite silly and perhaps a bit insulting

<>

I think the pound is a singular possession, like a house, where deeds are in the name of the Bank of England...

The Scots banks are issued million, hundred million and other large denomination notes by the Bank of England and they use these to back their own banknotes (there are other tricks in play too). You can go to an issuing bank in Scotland and ask for a pound for their note and they will give you a BoE pound. They always can cover their notes because thems the rules of a fiat currency (not backed by gold or share based equity as per 18th banks).

Also Scots currency is not legal tender. It MAY be used for exchange (you can negotiate whatever units of exchange you want provided you can pay any tax due). However, it need not be accepted for the payment of debt. BoE pounds are always acceptable for the payment of debt in England but the definition is petty and not particularly useful.

There is cool stuff about this here: http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/legal_position.php

My view is that a fiat currency is very, very complicated. It doesn't look like a CD collection or sound like a CD collection, so maybe when they say it doesn't behave like a CD collection they are right.

Are the Commitments Scottish? They were in a movie I saw, and I *thought* they were supposed to be Irish? Am I that bad at telling the difference between Irish and Scottish accents?

Paulh. There is no smiley.

'Bludding foreigners all look the same to me.

Now. How about those Commitments CDs............'

They were indeed Irish. 'The Irish are the blacks of Europe, Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland, and the North Siders are the blacks of Dublin ... so say it loud -- I'm black and I'm proud!'

So. Can we keep the Simple Minds hit?

PP.

"Paulh. There is no < tongueincheekpokingfunatmyselfironicaly > smiley. "


In Pliny that looked like you said "There is no smiley."

It was rather , like "there is no spoon" or "the cake is a lie".

Then The Scots can't take Alabaster with them.

PP.

Yes, you can keep the Simple Minds hit.

I have a way of guessing wrong repeatedly when presented with numerous accents from different parts of the British Isles. This may be comparable to British people's experience with different regional accents of the U.S. Tim Parks has mentioned the difficulty of deciphering the different regional accents in Italy.

I remember trying to figure out where the first scenes of "Warhorse" took place by identifying the accents. I was way off.

Newcastle?

We Irish will keep the Commitments, and those bi-partisan fellas Snow Patrol are ours too, even if they did all meet at a Scottish University. The Scots can keep Lulu's Greatest Hits and anything by The Krankees.

Would the appellations United Kingdom and Great Britain have to change?

Currency parity in neighbouring countires isn't new - someone's already mentioned the old Irish punt/ sterling arrangement, and the Luxembourg franc used to be linked to the Belgian one.

(btw crossing the border between the south and north of Ireland is no big deal these days )

I'd hate to break up Foreigner.

I understood that Scotland originaly joined the union as the country was facing economic collapse.

If they are that confident and an independant future then they can perhaps do it without the pound.

And passports and work permits might need to be issued for Scots to travel and work in the UK especialy if they cant join the EU and UK pasports held by those in Scotland will be invalid.

The oil wont last forever and demand is predicted to drop in the future, and Scots wealth is based on a finite resorce.

I have to confess that it wasn't an issue that I had thought about before the discussion here. However, now I do think about it, hanging on to a joint currency makes no sense in terms of independence even though it does fiscally.

1. You have a foreign country having a major say in control of fiscal policy.

2. You end up with a major say in the fiscal policy of a foreign country.

And that just isn't independence is it.

I can only conclude that this is one of those policies that politicians pursue because it appears to fit in with the general aims of their party but which they hope they never achieve. Is Alex Salmond really hoping for a no vote?

PP.

Damn. To stay on topic, I meant to say, so far as Lulu is concerned, can we have her as cultural ambassador to Hitchin please.

PP.