h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

the societies are very different
I would say Scotland is somewhat more socialist than England,
this is reflected in the more left wing policies that are popular in the Scottish parliament

For now. Fifty years ago Scotland was quite strongly Conservative. Politics change like the wind and I really don't think there are huge differences between English and Scottish societies.

The Scots think Mince n' Tatties is the business. English wouldn't touch it with a barge pole

I think there are differences - but they are very minor (see what I did with the word 'very' there? )

My whole family is Scottish but I was born and brought up in England. I can't really tell any major difference in culture between us and those who remain north of the border. They think we talk posh - that's about it. My gran gave me mince and tatties when I was a kid and I have a tendency to call a door latch 'the snib'.

Interestingly I discovered last night that although none of my family south of the border can vote - if you were born in Scotland you get automatic citizenship of Scotland if they go independent.
This will be an interesting dichotomy in my family. Clearly my mother is indisputably Scottish but myself and my sister were no born there so we don't get that but our older brother was born in Glasgow shortly before my parents departed south on promises of pavements paved with gold. So he will get to be a citizen but not me - weird.

I'm sure you can apply for citizenship if you were wanting it Orcus,
I expect many people will end up with a duel citizenship of sorts,


now isn't this a bit of a serious discussion to be having on a fun thread about music?

Differences in culture are all relative.

Put and Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman in the Brazillian rainforest along with some Japanese tourists and see who they gravitate towards...

You'll find I'm not that fussed really Dr Anthea - especially as I now live in Wales to complicate things further

My other half is Irish and has no issues at all crossing any borders or getting a job with an Irish passport. It's much easier to get between Ireland and UK than it is between UK and France for example (notwithstanding crossing certain sections of the NI/Eire border )
I expect such an arrangement would be the same with the Scots if they became independent.

On the subject of promises of a better life south of the border - who gets Gerry Rafferty's "Baker Street"? I mean, Rafferty was a Scot, but it's clearly a song failing to find pavements of gold down south.


Geggs

Until he did of course

To be fair, my Dad moved us south to England as he had a job there - he was never the type to be found near King's Cross hurling abuse at people on the trains.

It's a difficult point to deal with because it's dealing with factors that aren't necessarily part of their own awareness and self image.

Just as we, as humans, in common with all the higher animals, are defined by our own insanities, so too with nations.

Further, making comparisons tends to suggest value judgements. You might compare two children, but can you say which is better? (Only if you're a shit head you can).

It's kinda obvious to those who've see both. I had the advantage of spending about 17 years in Scotland, and 20 or so in England. As an immigrant to the UK, it might excuse my observing each, dispassionately.

These are, perhaps, the relevant points.

1. The Scots want to leave the union.

2.If you question those in Scotland that say they don't, invariably they will say they don't hate the English and don't want border crossings. Both nonsense. No-one hates England or English people.

3. The truth about England is, it tends to view those that don't want to be within its yolk, as having some sort of hatred of it. That is simply not true. England is admired and loved all over the world. Nations was to govern themselves for the same reason England does.

4. The UK establishment is turning to its usual tactic of telling the Scots they aren't good enough. They need the UK. The identical tactic was used in almost every empire state and Ireland. It isn't true there and it isn't true in the case of Scotland.

5. If the Scots don't leave this time, the effect will be devastating to their social sense of self worth. I watched the consequences after the referendum defeat in the late 70s. For years afterward, into the 90s when I left, they were like beaten housewives, accepting the next beating as inevitable and unavoidable.

I'm sorry of I can't be more specific, but even though you probably never intended it, the question is loaded. That is the best I can do.

Last point in response to #20

Thanks for the answer Spacial

Point 1 - The Scots want to leave the Union.

This isn't actually true. Support for independence has always been around the 33% mark. Years of SNP government and 18 months into an independence campaign, support is at roughly 34%. The majority of Scots, over 50%, oppose independence.

Point 5 - If the Scots don't leave this time, the effect will be devastating to their social sense of self worth.

I disagree. If the majority get their way at the referendum, why would their self-worth be devastated?

I think you'll find they do want to leave. Most who say they don't, seem to be more concerned about being seen as hating the English.

We only need to read many of the points, pro and anti- to see that there is a repeated obsession with having relatives here or there, where we were born and so on.

Ultimately irrelevant.

What matters is what is in the best interests of both the UK states. England needs its own parliament. At the moment, the nearest we have to that is the London Assembly.

Scotland needs to go it's own way, make its own mistakes and take responsibility. Not blame England.

"Most who say they don't, seem to be more concerned about being seen as hating the English."

I can see why you draw that impression, as you talk to Scots and tell them what they think.

Understand.

I don't see much point in getting negative here. So, I'll leave it at that.

I have the daughter of a family friend as a Facebook friend. She was born in orkney, where I lived during me teens.

She makes lots of comments generally indicating her love of scotland & her disdain for england. Because I like her sister a lot & don't want to rock that boat, I refrain from asking her why, if Scotland is so perfect & England so bad why is she chosing to bring up her 3 kids in Staffordshire.

Deb

Surely the point of the referendum is to establish if the Scots actually want to leave the Union? So that we know what all the Scots think, as opposed to merely the most vocal of them.

So we may THINK (or not) that the Scots want to leave the Union now, but in a few month's time we will KNOW.


Geggs

I know that the vote is a national one and not on a county by county basis, but interesting to speculate what would happen if Wigtown, Kirkudright, Dumfries and Roxburgh - shires were to want to remain in the union and the rest didn't.

Alba and Southern Scotland?

Anyway, back on topic, the Bay City Rollers are to be deported if they try to remain in The New UK.

PP.

There was a discussion about currencies a while back. No one mentioned the Euro. If Scotland became independent, it might want to choose the Euro. This would be convenient because the currency already exists. Of course, Scotland would need to be accepted into the EEC.

I thought they'd already been rejected by the Eurozone. Greece and Spain didn't want to keep bailing them out.

The Euro was the preferred option for the SNP back in 2009 when Salmond sniggered that the Pound was sinking like a stone and would be a millstone around an independent Scotland's neck. That was Plan A which was quietly ditched when we saw what the EU did to free-spending peripheral countries. Plan B was currency union. This was like me announcing that it has been decided that in five year's time Orcus will be working for Microsoft on a seven figure salary. Microsoft might want a say in that matter.

Plan C is ... well, um, ahhhh