h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hubby and I are going to Italy later in the year, so I'm trying to learn Italian. We also like visiting France, so I'll be learning French. Actually, French is more a case refreshing and improving what I already know, while Italian is totally new.

Here's the thing, though. I've always understood that it doesn't matter if your pronunciation and accent are a bit off, or if your vocabulary is a bit wonky. As long as you make an attempt to speak a foreign language, the locals will appreciate it. However, I've recently been led to believe that if you can't get the language right it's best not to bother as the locals may regard it as offensive.

Which of these is true? Should I keep on trying to learn foreign languages so I can talk to other people on their own terms, even if not fluently? Or should I stop wasting my time (and money!) and rely on finding people who understand English?

My experience is that people appreciate the effort, but also like to practice their English. So don't be offended if they just answer you in English anyway.

If you persist with French / Italian they will help you I think

Italian's fun to learn. I did an evening class in it many years ago.

It's always worth learning the basics so you can cope with things like shopping and restaurants. Learning the numbers is essential.

It also helps to learn the pronouns. If you want to buy something and don't know what it's called, then just point at it and say "questi qui" (these ones here)

Watch out for Italian double negatives, too:

"Non ho niente da dichiarare" - I have nothing to declare

Actually, Icy, hubby and I stopped in Venice for one day last year on a cruise. I fell in love with the sound of the Italian language. I'm learning via Rosetta Stone and the words 'delle mele gialle' (some yellow apples) have a sound and rhythm I haven't found in any other language.

I know it's ambitious, but I'd like to get fluent enough in French and Italian to be able to read in those languages. I already have some books by Jules Verne that haven't been translated to English, and I understand that Dante's Divine Comedy gains something from being read in Italian. Maybe one day!

ONe piece of advice from me (I lived in Italy for a few months once) is make sure you learn the PERSONAL pronouns. (i.e. I, you, they, etc.)
They're not really used by native speakers but you are unlikely to get the verb endings right (if you do you're doing well!) so make sure you *do* use them otherwise they won't know what you are talking about,

That's one area that I've had to think about. 'I', 'he', we and 'they' are easy - io, lui, noi, loro. But they have three words for you - tu, lei, voi - of which the first two are informal and formal singular, and 'lei' can also mean 'she'. Add to that the fact that the words for 'hats' and 'hair' are almost identical - cappelli and capelli - and I sometimes feel like the Italians are ganging up on me!

As to what's considered rude or not.. difficult question.
Some people will be offended if they feel you don't bother trying to speak the language of the country you are in;
others will get offended if you try to speak it even though you're not quite fluent...

I'd advise you to try Italian/French first, but as someone else said, don't be offended if they answer in English.

My wife is a great fan of learning languages. I am happy to be able to say "Good morning" (at any time of day) and to be able to buy a beer, and another beer like/unlike the last one.

We have a rule that I am allowed to ogle the waitress for as long as it takes my wife to order a meal for five in flawless local dialect, no matter how long that takes.

Actually I think that may just be my rule

It's definitely worth making the effort. But accept that you will NEVER speak a language as fluently as a native. Think of people you know who speak English as a second language - they will always make some errors in grammar or pronounciation. That's OK. Communication is about getting your message across, not perfection.

My children love to tease me about the way I make Italian up. I use the French or Latin word, and an "o" to the end, and wave my arms around a lot. Hey, this worked OK when I had to tell the owner of our Tuscan holiday home, who spoke neither English nor French, that the heating wasn't working! We went on to have a memorable conversation consisting largely of Italian footballers' names.

I'm afraid I'm no help, although I am very definitely part of the demographic addressed in the subject line. My attitude to languages is "all or nothing". While there is no "all" in languages (I can't claim to know "all" of the English language by a long chalk) I don't have the chuzpah to trumpet something in a foreign language because I'm worried I might make a grammatical mistake, if I'm not absolutely certain of what I'm saying.

I find people who do this (and I am surrounded by people who think they can speak English) very embarrassing.

But, as Bea says, at the end of the day, it's the message that counts, and those people get stuff done despite not knowing where to put apostrophes or how to congujate the simplest irregular verbs.

Especially when you're on holiday, very much is communicated without language - e.g. a waiter will be able to guess a lot of what you want from him/her without you struggling to explain.

Truck drivers manage to communicate with the warehouses they are collecting/delivering from, whichever country they are in - the thought processes involved in carrying out their work are the same, regardless of the language used.

So - learn a few words, take a phrase book AND a dictionary, concentrate on the pronunciation.

And never forget that nearly everyone you speak to will never see you again, nor will they ever know who you are. (Now that's something I ought to tell myself more often!)

That's almost the opposite of what I used to teach (as an EFL teacher). I would say: Go ahead, speak. Make mistakes. With practice the mistakes will be fewer.

On Bahrain, same taxi to & from work (for a while), English to, Arabic from. Worked a treat.
(that was before the troubles, when it was a great place to be).

You didn't have to do that Sho on account of my mistake

And as for Italians appreciating you speaking the language - I had the contrary experience in Italy last year. See my journal if you want details, but we found that speaking Italian in Rome was not appreciated one iota. They just insist on talking English to you. Even if their English is worse than your Italian.

But even my Italian colleague gets spoken to in English by Romans, even if she is already in full rant mode in fluent, obviously mother-tongue Italian.

You will run into some people who want you to speak to them in their language, and some other people who will let you speak English. It takes all kinds of people to make up a country.

I was in central Italy in 2007. I tried to learn some Italian before I arrived, but it interfered with the modest amount of Spanish I had learned a few years before. The result was that I felt totally incompetent in *both* languages .

I can pronounce words in 14 different languages, but I don't understand most of the words I am pronouncing. That comes from singing music from a lot of different countries. Japanese was not all that hard to pronounce in the transliterated form on my score. Chinese was murder, though. It took six months to learn to pronounce the words for three choruses. I love Ukrainean and Russian because of the way the "L" sound is pronounced at the back of the throat. Welsh is *extremely* hard for me. German is fairly straightforward. Italian has a nice feel as the words trip over your tongue. The dental "T" is especially fun. Just say "Fortunato di," pronouncing the "T" as far forward as you can.

it's no problem Orcus - I'm just about over being old and can live with it

plus I had [42] in brackets after my name for a whole year (7 years ago)