h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I often wonder why you can't just inject cows with lutenising hormone to produce truely 'vegetarian' milk.

As it is I know I *should* be vegan, but find it really difficult to stick to.

Following on from Kelli...

I don't know about NZ, but iirc crate farming has now been banned in the EU?

Years ago, I saw that someone raised water-melons in a wire-mesh crate so they would grow essentially square. Easier for shipping, stacking and storing, but I saw that as cruel and inhumane.

Freedom of growth for ALL water-melons, I say!

And lets not stop there!

*All* melons should be set free!


(You can read that how you will. )

About this cow posted from the pub, where do you stick the stamps?

( @ 24 ...)

And how do you address the cow (other than "Good day, Ma'am", of course)? Branding is considered cruel as well, and permanent ink might affect later enjoyments at the dinner table.

on it's arse of course

How would you like your steak, sir?

Just pull its nose off and wipe its arse!

Concrete sheds with 3 square metres of space per calf is certainly an improvement on crates. But still not very good quality of life. I just don't think animals should be raised indoors like that. It's not like they have to do that, it's about current economic models (so yes, I blame capitalism too).

I'd be interested to see what organic veal producers are doing because raising calves in a concrete pen would be hard without breaking organic certification standards. I'm guessing they are free range.

Kea, calves can be reared outdoors with their mothers living a short but happy life and the meat product is still sold as veal.

That was kind of my point Peanut. But the reasons they've been raised in crates, and now in concrete stalls is because of economics. It's unnecessary and saying it's ok to eat UK rose veal because the calves weren't in crates isn't the full story.

I rarely eat veal, but I have tried outdoor reared UK veal from a farm nearby. It is nice. But not that much nicer that a lot of other meats.

Also, for a by-product it's not cheap.

There is a lot of argument about the dairy industry, and I do agree it's an industry, but it's not something that can be shut down over night, it'd take generations.

Strangely enough, the only decent argument I've seen about how to stop the slaughtering of the calves is to make the adult beef in such high demand that it becomes profitable to grow them to adulthood. And to do that, you'd need to stop this country's (not sure about elsewhere) over reliance on usually battery reared chicken. Go into any supermarket and most of the ready meals are chicken. We're addicted to it because it's cheap and tasteless. So, totally ban factory farming chicken, the price of chicken goes up, beef becomes more popular, calves are reared to adulthood...

One way of looking at it.

Actually the UK hasnt got much of a veal industry anyway (other than as a byproduct of dairy - and thats basically pet food). Its not a popular meat. So any home-produced veal will tend towards the organic/ freedom farming/ etc.

If I were focusing my priorities (and if it were a big campaigning issue for me), Id be concentrating on chickens, turkeys and pigs.




COMPLETE ASIDE:

I was reading something recently about how in the Danish pig industry they issued guidelines that said that sows should be sexually stimulated during insemination to increase the chances of conception. Hence the piggie vibrator. I have to say...I wouldnt much fancy that job.

>>So, totally ban factory farming chicken, the price of chicken goes up, beef becomes more popular, calves are reared to adulthood...

But this is where were right to blame Capitalism. That would hardly be Free Market, would it? And, hell, if we cant even be bothered to manage Capitalism for the benefit of humans...why start at calves?

Of course under Communism everyone will eat tofu.

This is where a good understanding of free market economics comes in to play, want to see an increase in animal welfare, create the demand for 'happy meat', it's effective

> Of course under Communism everyone will eat tofu.

Not under my brand of communism. I'm bringing in Solent Green

On the subject of tofu though, my wife's vegan and most meals at home are vegan. A lot of people moan about how tofu is bland, etc, etc, but actually it's a really good ingredient to cook with. Just drain it, squeeze/press it for a couple of hours, and then it'll soak up any and all flavours you put it with. Make up a good marinade and you can have some *really* good food. I think the problem people have with tofu is they can't cook, or don't know how to use it.

OK - but whats the motivation for creating a demand for happy meat?

Sure, you can do it to be nice. Or because you think you can find a niche market of nice people. But that weighs against a bigger, mass market where industrial meat will always undercut the nicer* version. So whats the mass market motivation for paying over the odds to alleviate animal suffering?

Im possibly giving a counsel of despair here. Maybe people can be persuaded en masse to be kind to animals even when its not in their own economic interests. However we observe that at present when it comes to food people dont even make decisions that are in their own health interests when the price of rubbish food is weighed against healthy. Why? Well because when people dont have money, and theres a food industry targeted at their lack of money...the two are connected.

Sooo...I Blame Capitalism. Its a Big Ask to suddenly expect economic reforms that will give people the material comfort which allows them to make free decisions about how much cruelty (and health) they want from their food and thus create a market for less cruel, healthier food. Maybe consumer and government pressure can chip away at some of the excesses - governments sometimes listen to nice, middle-class people - but I wouldnt hold my breath for a clamour to outlaw McNuggets. Therell still, meanwhile, be a market for happy veal and rare breed piggies. To paraphrase Leonard Blast: Something to make rich people feel nice during their dinner.

Four legs good and two legs bad!





* And lets be honest...its not *that* much nicer.

I think it says a lot for a society in how it treats the utterly powerless. It's not a question with starting with the way calves are raised. It's about what that says about attitudes.

Such animals are clearly sentient in the sense that they feel pain and suffering. I have no problem with slaughter, (unless it's Halal)..it's about attitudes.

The more we are considerate in one area..the more we might be in human ones.

Of course that's pie in the sky..though Hugh Fearnely Wittingstall has done much to highlight battery farming of chicken. I'm so pleased now that in the super there are as many free range chickens for sale now as the battery ones..and more free range eggs for sale now than the others.

Yes in Britain we're a bit soppy about animals. I don't care, that shows good instincts and caringness about totally powerless sentient creatures.

I should say I'm no fanatic or animal liberationist nut..and I accept they should be used in research..with hopefully as good a protection as possible from unnecessary pain.

And I have mixed views on fox hunting

Yes the niceness of free range chicken in terms of flavour compared to non organic is simply light years apart.

Only Halal? Or Kosher too?

I'm wondering because one was the subject of an orchestrated campaign by various political groups during the last EU elections. Many people saw it on teh interwebs and cottoned on to it without necessarily having made it a priority previously. Some of them seemingly lacked the nous to wonder why it had suddenly emerged as an issue or who was doing the orchestrating. (None of which was difficult to discover if one took half an interest in current affairs, incidentally).

But thats how populist politics works. Bodies are more important than brains.