h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

> why it had suddenly emerged as an issue <

I didn't realise it. I first became aware years ago when one of the artists at college made a lot of work to do with it. She was Japanese.

But yeah Kosher as well.

But let's not go down that tedious root again. It's just one of the many ways our country abuses animals on an industrial scale.

And as I say that also reflects our attitudes to how we treat our fellow humans.

>>I didn&#39;t realise it.

And this is my point. When supporting a political campaign, we have a moral duty to ensure that we are not being used as convenient naive dupes.

As Ive said before - I have respect for people who promote animal welfare, even if I dont support their priorities. I have rather less respect for those who single out halal and kosher slaughter as an issue: if anything were talking about a matter of degree. But I had no respect for the various people I came across (and here Im not talking about you) who got excited about the issue when the Sweden Democrats took it up as an EU election hot button issue and started to coordinate with the various other neo-fascist groups across Europe. People might look into these things before jumping on bandwagons.

So perhaps its unfortunate for the average meat-eating ambivalent-about-foxhunting anti-halal campaigner that their issue has become tainted. (And after all their years of dedicated campaigning!) But now the issue has been picked up by undesirables and they have gathered their Useful Idiots about them...nowadays when someone says theyre against halal slaughter I feel an unfortunate need to scrutinise their credentials.

>>And as I say that also reflects our attitudes to how we treat our fellow humans.

Kant!

No, seriously. Thats what Kant thought.

There have been various attempts to unite Animal and Human Rights. I dont buy it myself - as far as Im concerned our moral duties are to other humans. But Kant makes the point that if he saw a man whipping his dog he couldnt trust him with humans.

Vice versa doesnt necessarily work, of course: Hitler, vegetarian dog lover.

I didn't realise some political groups had a problem with Halal/Kosher slaughter. As best I can tell from the practice, its entire function is to minimise suffering. I believe there's a lot of debate as to whether they should or shouldn't stun the animals first, but that's partly because of the shock stunning causes in the first place. Done right, it's more humane than a typical British slaughterhouse.

I seriously hadn't heard of it being taken up as a political thing. I'm not that politically astute though.

Well I think an argument could possibly be made either way and I come down on neither side.

*But* before making my mind up Id want to do some research. That would make it reasonably plain who some of the campaigners are. At that point I might start to question whether they truly shared an interest in animal welfare or had Darker Motives.

One might still, of course, say ~Yes - its unfortunate that the issue has been infested with neo-nazism, but the animal welfare concerns override that.~ But Im afraid Id only buy that from someone who was quite clearly opposed to all forms of animal cruelty.

But if someone hadnt done the basic research...well I wouldnt feel the need to respect their opinions.

And just a quick point:

">>I didn&#39;t realise it.

And this is my point. When supporting a political campaign, we have a moral duty to ensure that we are not being used as convenient naive dupes."

Her point wasn't that she supported a political campaign, it was that she was aware of the issues from another source, unrelated to this campaign you were talking about.

Your point is still valid, but tying it with sleeting's comment could give impression that they are related in some way.

>Done right, it's more humane than a typical British slaughterhouse. <

I got to see a lot of film footage of it, via that artist. It didn't seem very humane to me..but maybe it just wasn't done right?

I've never had a problem with having an opinion on something..and then find out some political group has happened to hijack an issue. I just stick to what I happen to think regardless. I wouldn't have integrity otherwise.

But in terms of slaughter in general it's interesting that they still won't show it on tv in full reality. Fearnley Wittingstall was allowed to show a tiny bit..but with massive warnings.

It's incredible when you think tens of thousands are slaughtered everyday and most Brits will eat meat everyday but we can't see the full *reality* on tv.

It's still the killing of an animal. It's more humane, but that doesn't make it nice.

I agree about this lack of information about the food chain. So many people see meat as this pre-packaged thing they get in a supermarket, not something real.

>>I&#39;ve never had a problem with having an opinion on something..and then find out some political group has happened to hijack an issue.

Fine. Agreed. But remember this whole stooshie originally kicked off a few years ago when the campaign had already been started up by others and I (ahem) politely cautioned against jumping on suspicious bandwagons.

I was simply warning that there is a network of European groups that deliberately encourage anti-Muslim sentiment through various coordinated local single-issue campaigns on halal slaughter, minaret building, burqa wearing, religious symbols in schools...etc All these individual campaigns may have their merits. But in supporting them, please decide whether you want to be part of a bigger picture.

Why would you show reality on tv when you can fill the listings with reality tv?

I eat meat, I've not killed an animal myself but I've been there when small (rabbits etc) have been killed and I've butchered my own meat. I understand the whole stuff surrounding it, and I still eat meat because I like the taste. I don't like the way that animals in the "food industry" are treated, and that's why I only eat organic/free range/ethically farmed meat. It's a decision I made and I'm happy with that.

The argument of money making it cheaper to eat non-organic doesn't actually wash in the long run. If you buy all your ingredients and cook from scratch the cost difference is minimal. It's the time and convenience that really make the difference. If someone was to do a range of convenience food that used organic meat then I'd buy that. Otherwise, I just make the time to cook.

ViP:
>>I agree about this lack of information about the food chain.

I notice there has been more recently Kill It, Cook It, Eat It, etc.

An incomplete picture, I fear. We have not yet been shown inside an industrial turkey shed. Bootiful!

(In fact I wonder if Hugh Wittringham-Twitteringham et al possibly have a negative effect? Do they allow people to hold on to the myth that all their meat comes from happy, healthy animals? If thats the only kind you see on telly, thats what you can allow yourself to think.)

It's even cheaper to be vegatarian than to eat cheap meat. So if you can't afford decent humane meat then you shouldn't be eating it at all.

Unless you are ok with factory farming.

I've killed plenty of fish. My dad took me fishing from a young age. The first lesson was how to dispatch the fish instantly, with a sharp smack of its head on a rock.

When I lived in Sussex there was an old man living next door..almost old peasant stock I think. There was a small farm up the road. Every so often he would be summoned to wring the neck of a cockerel. They obviously are only ocassionally killed. I think it was some kind of old ritual for Bert to be called in for that.

I do make a distinction between things that are done on a mass industrial scale and things that are more to do with old traditions..and societies which are still much more rurally based.

It makes no sense to me that a modern industrial country would not use the most humane scientific methods for slaughter on a mass scale.

But yes reality tv What we need are all the full facts to come out about this stuff...I blame the Murdochs

<>

Yep, sounds like a job for old Bert!

I do wonder what real reality tv would be like. A series on 24 hours in industry could be good. Follow a workplace from the morning shift arriving to the morning shift arriving. Showing the public what really happens in an abatoir could be good for them. But how to get them to watch it? Maybe get some wannabe celebs in it? Maybe offer a prize?

I can see it now:

"Okay Krystal, you've managed to gut the most cows today so you're in with a strong chance of winning a years supply of botox. You just need to beat Tarquin tomorrow when we go to the recycling plant and see exactly how much tin you can reclaim!"

I've been explaining to my kids where food comes from - t'Boy was a bit confused about the fact the the chicken we buy from sainsburys (only ever the organic ones - they are better meat quality than the non-organic one and aren't so full of fat and water so a smaller bird does more dinners for the four of us than one of the giant industrially-farmed ones) is the same as the chickens we keep in the garden for eggs.

A bit of miming and puppetry with the corpse and he got it. Now he thinks if there is an animal on the box, that animal has been killed and used to make what is in the box, so stork margerine contains storks, coco-pops contain monkeys etc. Tricky business this, but that is better than him thinking his food starts out sterile, prepackaged and plastic-wrapped. He already knows about growing veg thanks to our allotment.

By the age of ten I'd killed, prepared cooked and eaten, duck, rabbit, fish and phesent... well either alone, or e with help of family and/or friends... I never really saw th elogic in either vegatarianism or veganism, unless its just because you don't like the taste, which is fair enough The last time I was in a large-scale slaughter house was in the late 1980's, early 1990's and even back then* it all seemed pretty organised really and as humaine as one could make it, though I'd like to think its perhaps even moreso now with the huge increase in regulations and suchlike that I seem to think there have been in the past couple decades or so

I bought some oysters earlier You can't beat raw and alive with a squeeze of lemon and a splash of tabasco. Must go up the road for some very dry white wine to go with them.

Oh crikey they are good. They are the best thing I ate in a month. The most *real*. I love that it takes a bit of time to penetrate them with my French oyster knife. They are very gnarled at this time of year and harder to find a way into. But then finally it's 'I'm in' and twist. And there's sea water in there..with the oyster. Lots of nimble slicing needed to release it..and then it's like a moment of something so fizzingly amazing when you get it in your mouth. Swallow then a gulp of pinot grigio.........woweeee

I do think everything to do with oysters is to do with sex really.

(Slightly drunk post about oysters).