h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Not the monkey
Get it right from the start and no one has to 'beat' anyone.

Giford

Do 'they' respect anyone or anything ?

Ancient Im not suggesting no discipline and no respect Im saying lets not just beat people and imagine its instilling the former.

I actually think having had to instill respect and discipline in others that you do it much better without the beating and that if anything beating people gets in the way of increasing what you want.

Believe me sometimes I do want to strangle some of the adults and children I work with from time to time. Im only human. I dont though because Im a professional and because I dont want people to be able to point and say "there goes an unthinking thug"

However if I have a boy child I will try not to beat him because I dont want him to grow up to think that violence is an answer to a situation of conflict. If I have a girl child I will not beat her for the same reason but also because i dont want her to grow up to think that it is ever acceptable for a man to raise his hand to her under any circumstances. They will learn how to *defend* themselves from people who dont respect their freedom to go around without being attacked and how to protect others without putting themselves in danger.

Some people respect me because they fear that if push came to shove they wouldnt stand much of a chance.

I like to thnk that most respect me and are disciplined around me because they like what I do. I create so much fun they dont want me to ask them to sit out. I give them so much knowledge and praise when they learn that they dont want to see me frowning when they fail to live up to the standards I not only set but do my best to exemplify.

All that takes a lot more innovation and pertinacity that a swift clip round the ear but it is miles more effective in the long run.

AB:

Agreed! Absolutely! The problem is...what do we mean by 'Get it right'?

My own feeling is that I get annoyed with those who want to shut the door after the stable has bolted. Prison *doesn't* reduce crime. Social justice does. The smart money should be n funding social worker, teachers...and, dare I say, economic reforms which would remove inequalities from society. (although how one would achieve the last I have no good ideas.)

The subject heading 'Jon Venables' opens a can of worms, so that anything dealing with human behavior would seem relevant.

blicky badge
You certainly go from one extreme to the other.
You obviously have some responsibility for other peoples children.
You say 'instill' , which I think is the operative word.
From day one 'instilling' good behavior is more important than potty training. It's as much about getting rid of the animal instinct as it is about enhancing the values of human nature. Children 'leave' the home and are exposed to the world at large at a much more early age than they were in my day when the home was hardly ever empty. Modern society now has it that two incomes are necessary in order to maintain standards and demands outside help for 'child' care in order that this is possible. From the moment a child is 'handed over' the destiny is set.

What is modern in your mind Ancient?

What's wrong with going from one extreme to another?

I would never ask anyone to rid themselves of animal urges. I try to control and sometimes access mine as the time and situation fits that is humanity but humans are still animals. We just have shoes and choices to make.

You seem to be advocating giving full reign to our anumal urges for physical revenge when children make mistakes. That is inhumane.

Hi AB,

>From day one 'instilling' good behavior is more important than potty training.

I agree with this - but is beating a child really role-modelling the behaviour you want to see?

Gif

<<From the moment a child is 'handed over' the destiny is set. <<

Don´t be so pessimist. Children go to school. Teachers, most of them, try to educate, to form people, civic people. Parents still have a responsability that doesn´t disappear because both of them work. Parents co-educate with the school**. Many children come more or less socialized from home, others show careless parenting and teachers have to work more to compensate.

Staying longer at home isn´t the best for education. Some people choose homeschooling but it doesn´t help children socialize.

Parents have less time for the children but it doesn´t mean that they neglect their responsabilities. Spending time with them is a question of quality nor quantity.

**
Media also co-educate, and neighbours... all the community.

Actually...in my experience sitting on Children's Panels,* schools and nurseries can have a major, positive influence on children - sometimes the *only* positive influence.





*Sort of Scottish children's courts - but not quite. We treat both offences *by* children and neglect and abuse *of* them as the same issue. And I'm sure I've just shocked AB with the realisation that I have some responsibility for dealing with young offenders. It's all my fault.

It does my head that in general nowadays children spend more time with professionals and less time with their parents ... and yet somehow it's still all the parents' fault when things go wrong. There's a lot of lumping parents together irrespective of how capable they are or not

Sorry, that was slightly off-topic. As you were.

I've yet to see an explanation of how we all know that a man not called Jon Venables was taken into custody. The police must arrest hundreds of people every day that aren't called Jon Venables. How come the media knew about this one?

Mol

>>school. Teachers, most of them, try to educate, to form people, civic people. Parents still have a responsability that doesn´t disappear because both of them work. Parents co-educate with the school**. Many children come more or less socialized from home, others show careless parenting and teachers have to work more to compensate.<<

Well said Maria. IMO school and parenting shouldn't be seperate and the best students I've worked with have been those whose parents take an active interest in their school life.

In September I'll be seeing a lad off to medical school, the first time a student from my current school has ever gone straight onto a medicine course. This is happening partially because of the huge amount of work his dad puts in: not a week goes by where I and m'colleagues don't have a conversation with him. Often exhausting but always productive and appreciated.

School knows that if we send something home with this kid, it'll get done. Dad knows the school is doing everything it can for him and the lad himself knows we're all looking out for him.

You can't force a kid to do good or ill, all you can do is set that child up so they can make their own choices. Trying to force someone to respect others is never going to happen because respect doesn't work that way.

Following on from what Mol said, though...there's a great danger in placing the entire blame on the parents who *don't* engage in schools.

In our fractured society, life can be very difficult for some parents. It may be convenient to blame a parent for being (eg) a hopeless, junkie waster, but to forget that their parents were also hopeless junkie wasters. (I see this forgotten by my Children's Panel colleagues all too often).

Philip Larkin said it the best:

http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm

blicky badger
And you say that I have come out with some monumentally stupid stuff on this thread. As an animal my nature you should understand the carot and the stick as forms of motivation.
Giford
The only child that I ever had to beat was the one that used to bully me at school. We finished up the best of friends.
Not the monkey
It is no surprise to me at all that you are a 'Professional'. Just as we have good and bad kids we have good and bad professionals. Wear the cap that fits. How many kids have you got ?
HonestTony
How many kids in the school ? There has to be one prime example. Why not a tale about a bad one and how he/she is treated at school and at home.
Maria del Mar
I admire your optimism. Let's hope that it is well founded.

AB:

Not the monkey

>>It is no surprise to me at all that you are a 'Professional'. Just as we have good and bad kids we have good and bad professionals. Wear the cap that fits.

No I am not a professional Nor even a 'professional'. In the Scottish Children's Panel system, decisions on children's welfare are made by ordinary, lay citizens like me. We do, of course, give strong consideration the views of professionals - typically social workers and teachers - but there are many, many times when I have overridden their recommendations. We also, as a matter of law, consider the views of the child. (The Universal Declaration on the Rights of the Child is formally adopted in Scots law).

For more information (where 'More' = 'More than the zero you previously possessed, even though that didn't stop you leaping to conclusions':
http://www.chscotland.gov.uk/

But I still don't see why you think that the expertise of the professionals who actually work with children full-time is more valuable than your amateurish ramblings.

AB

Oh, and...

>>How many kids have you got ?

Three. But what business is that of yours?

>>HonestTony
How many kids in the school ? There has to be one prime example. Why not a tale about a bad one and how he/she is treated at school and at home.<<

There's about 600 or so on roll. Story about a bad kid: check my journal entry called "I'm a media star" for an involved one, but I can give you a nice simple one today.

After break today I was running an event where university staff had come in to talk to my Year 7s. Just outside the school hall a mass brawl breaks out with a Year 11 student and known druggie as one of the protagonists. While other staff try to separate out the crowd one lad makes for the back of another with a weapon in his hand.

I grab the lad and slam him against the wall, pinning him there and using considerable force. Do you really think that kid has any more respect for me, other staff or his peers now that he's had a bit of a thumping?

I was at the Howard League today recording a podcast about penal reform. In which a big part of my research was reading this thread <winkeye..

I shall post a link once it has been published!

FB

AB:

My optimism is well founded , first of all because I`m a teacher.
I like teaching, it´s rewarding. I´m optimistic because my efforts, like those of other teachers, have positive results. The most “difficult” a child seems, the more interested I´m to do something really helpful for him. When there´s a child who behaves badly, who´s an attention-seeker, one that makes my blood boils,( I´m human, I`m passionate) I make myself think about his background. And I can assure you that the last thing I´m thinking of is to “give the cane” to him. I feel compasionate, however that doesn´t prevent me from being hard with them, I teach limits, discipline, they need it (I´m far from those New-agey parents who leave their children ad libitum because they don´t want “to interfere with their spontaneity”) but also, I am affectionate with them. Some, most, appreciate that, and that means that I´ve earned their respect.
There are lazy teenagers who desperate me. They have become dictators at home ( for different reasons: too indulgent parents, too authoritative parents, neglecting parents…) and want to behave the same at school. There´s limits for teachers. Those kids need another kind of attention.
Now I´m going to be a primary teacher (so far I´ve taught teenagers) I´m optimistic, even more than at secondary, I think I can do more if there´s a difficult case.

Being optimist means that I believe in life, yes, I know it sounds Hollywood-like, but man, if teachers, parents or anyone doesn´t believe in life, in future, in showing children the path towards a decent life that can make them happy and can contribute to the happiness of others, then, my friend we are doomed.

What I have serious doubts about is how well your pessimism is founded. Don´t be so scared. Visit any school, get information . Most families are normal. Media always highlights the negative.

One more thing : re-read that story you posted about the borstal. It has a big contradiction. The man at the end of the story praises the discipline he received at the borstal, however, at the begining of his story he mentions a teacher (can´t remember the words he uses) who was kind with him, took interest in him and helped him.
What do you think had more influence on that man, that teacher or polishing bullets early in the morning?

Not the monkey

Are you sure that you have put this question correctly ?
Regarding kids, I just wanted to know if you had first hand experience. I hope they turn out ok.

HonestTony

No but what did it do for you and the society ?
Do you think things will improve
Remember the school days are the happiest days of your life.
On your point about respect, who do you respect in todays world ?

Maria del Mar

Thanks for your concern but I am not scared for myself I have enjoyed a far better life than my father did, as he would have wished. What's more I did it my way. . As I've said before it's the destiny of my grandkids that worries me. You lot are doing your best within the rules but your complacency beggars belief. Too many members of our society are taking out more than they are putting in and far too many serious criminals are escaping justice.

AB:



>>Are you sure that you have put this question correctly ?


In what way is it unclear? You still haven't explained why you frequently put 'Professionals' in quotes. Taken in contest with some of your other comments, I was assuming it is meant to be disparaging. I may be mistaken, of course, in which case I shall apologise. But an explanation would clarify things.

Although...it could be that this...

>>Just as we have good and bad kids we have good and bad professionals. Wear the cap that fits.

...was simply an insult directed at me personally, implying that I'm a bad professional. (or 'Professional'). Even if I were a professional (or 'Professional'), which, as I've explained I'm not...I'm not sure you'd be entitled to judge that on the basis that I disagree with some things said by an amateur.

Fine. My skin is thick enough to brush off insults. But I politely suggest that you may not know what professionals (or 'Professionals') who work with children actually do. It would shed some light if you could clarify precisely what *based on your direct knowledge of their work* various professionals (or 'Professionals') are doing wrong.

Not the monkey
Read into my 'ramblings' whatever you want. If you find what I say insulting then so be it. 'If the cap fits'
A professional to me is someone who performs for monetary reward. I could add 'whether or not they deserve it'. I held a professional qualification relative to my work. I gave it up when I retired some 25 years ago. I am still asked for advice on aspects of my work. Just as in other professions the 'Professionals' who work with children need to perform to the best of their ability and look for improvement and advancement in what they do. Above all they must learn from their mistakes, then who knows one day they may become truly proficient.

You say


There is one quick answer to this question - Jon Venables