h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ah yes.... nuns cycling to cricket, the sound of willow on leather in the churchyard, the golden age of little England which... er.... never existed. I'm always puzzled as to when this time was supposed to have been....

Borstal, capital punishment, and corporal punishment were tried for decades and decades, and.... didn't work.

Civility and deference are a different issue entirely. When I was growing up I was taught to give up a seat on a bus for a lady, or for any adult. But this gradually morphed into just giving up a seat for anyone less able to stand. And that's quite right. It's one thing giving up a seat for a pregnant woman, or one with shopping, or small children, but it's far from clear why I should give up my seat for a woman who can stand just as well as I can. That would be sexist.

As for the figures of local deference, did they all deserve that status? I rather doubt it. Many did, no doubt, but there have been plenty of abuses of power through deference and through being in a position where no-one dare question. In recent years I've watched 'Saturday Night and Sunday Morning' and 'Quadrophenia' (set in the 50s and 60s respectively), and one of the many striking things about both films (yes, I know they're just films) is quite how badly young people are treated.

There is no substitute for first hand experience.
The future of their children has always been a main concern of the majority of parents. Talk to most old people and you will find that they are now more concerned for the future of their grandchildren than they were about the future of their own children, despite having had their own children shortly after a world war with talk of nuclear disaster.
Todays parents are still worried about the future of their children, but in addition they now seem to be 'fearful' of their future. That fear comes mainly from the lowering of national standards. The frightening thing to us oldies is that things that they were brought up to understand and believe are being swept aside. This is not ancient history it is happening within living memory and going on before your eyes. Things are moving fast and cleaver talk is useless.
Just remember that an Ancient Brit told you so.

"There is no substitute for first hand experience."

I'd have to disagree quite strongly, subjective evidence, form memory, often coloured with rose tinited spectacles is an awful way of judging macro situations.

And pandering to this kind of "evidence" makes for the worst kind of public policy agenda.



FB

in a word NO

NO

"Talk to most old people and you will find that they are now more concerned for the future of their grandchildren than they were about the future of their own children, despite having had their own children shortly after a world war with talk of nuclear disaster."

Well, I grew up during the Cold War and I genuinely did not expect to live to be an adult. I remember America bombing Libya and thinking, aged about ten or so, that's it - the beginning of the end. Now there are good reasons for saying that we should be at least as worried today about climate change... but for everything else.... I just don't see that things are that bad compared to how things have been historically.

There are problems with society at the moment, but then there always has been. One thing that happens now that didn't happen before is that everything is hyped up by the media, and terrible *exceptions* like Venables and Thompson are talked about as being symptomatic or typical of some wider malaise. Well.... they're not. It's an aberration. A terrible aberration.

Certain sections of the "media" - especially the Daily Hate and the Depress, have a clear agenda that has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with pandering to the prejudices and stoking the fears of their readers with a constant drip drip drip of negativity and poison about refugees, Muslims, foreigners in general, everything, causing cancer, the European Union, and young people.

Every generation has a moral panic about the next generation - going back as far as the earliest writings of the ancient Greeks.

Posters 123 to 125 - Off topic.
Your own experiences, limited though they seem to have been, should tell you that everything you read about old people is not true.
Some have lived and recall quite clearly life events from the first half of the 1900's.
Take it from me somethings just had to be seen through rose coloured spectacles, there was no molly coddling and counseling in those days. You would find that a first world war veteran spoke of the good times he had on the trenches where thousands died. Talk to your parents or older people about their lives in the second world war and they will choose to recall the good things. At any moment in time you will find that on reflection that time will more than likely turn out to be viewed as the best time in your life.
That is why 'oldies' worry about todays world and wonder how todays generation will recall events that they, the younger generation, just go on trying to whitewash over and hope against hope that they do not live to regret it.
One thing is certain advances in the last century were in the main technological. It is a great pity that humanity and human behavior has not advanced accordingly.
Could it be that humanity today likes to talk and plan, simply because doing so avoids having to take action.
What on earth should be done with Jon Venables ?

On the first if you want to know about rose tinted spectacles as people what the weather was like in summer in their youths... a simple test and one in which you can check the acccuracy.. (But to save time, actually there were not 6 weeks of un-interrrupted sunshine every year. More or less they varied between rainy and sunny as they do now).

As to your last point, it seems pretty clear to me. Venables has already been brought back into prison. If he is guilty of what he is accused of he will be charged, tried and if found guilty incarcerated.

Seems pretty simple to me....

FB

>>What on earth should be done with Jon Venables ?

Yes - let's return to that. I'm puzzled as to the relevance of whether or not we should return to Golden Age values to that question.

My position remains...pretty much as *is* being done. If he has broken the terms of his licence, he should be reimprisoned. If he has not, he should be re-released. In either case, every effort should be taken to ensure his safety, and that will mean ensuring his anonymity.

I really don't see what's the issue.

The question of hat Should Be Done about crime in general is a separate one.

Would be simple if you had had given some indication of what you mean by 'incarcerated' but please don't bother.

Apologies Ancient Brit. I had thought that it would be obvious to anyone reading the thread that I meant "Incarcerated in prison" and I am sorry to you if my post was not clear on that.

FB

Without wishing to put words in AB's mouth...maybe he's wondering whether 'incarcerated' means 'For a limited period and/or with release only when it is safe to do so' or 'for the rest of his natural'.

We can maybe debate what would have been an acceptable *minimum* sentence. But hand on heart...I'm not comfortable with the idea that a ten year old can be so culpable of an offence that he must never be released.

So are we talking about a simple dichotomy between 'Throw away the key' and 'Rehabilitation is possible'? Is there any room for debate over sentence lengths?

Perhaps he should be locked away with some of you and talked to death.

>> Perhaps he should be locked away with some of you and talked to death. <<

I think that would amount to "cruel and unusual" punishment.

RF

I'm always happy to perform a community service.

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"Some laws change, it's true. Which side of the road to drive on, acceptable language etc etc. But surely there are some that are constant - thieving, killing and rape, for example. Do we need to teach kids not to kill?"

Yes SWL, we do and that is exactly my point. Laws are not innate, very little is, yes as humans we have tendencies but we also have windows for learning and development during our childhood if these are missed or the wrong lessons are learned its not easy to re-write what is in peoples heads.

"Give me the child till he is seven...and I'll give you the man."

Ancient Brit you have come out wiht some monumetally stupid stuff on this thread. I was in the last year of primary children who were legally liable for corporal punishment. I got the cane just once. Some children got it over and over and over. The boys who did get caned still ended up in crime and prison. Like I said I was supported to stop and wanted to stop for other people. The kid a few doors up from me whose step dad sexually abused his sister and beat him, the kid who fell out with his mum because she still chose the step dad over her children. That kid ended up in prison on suicide watch.

He was caned (and worse) at school system couldnt beat his behaviour out of him because the *person* who beat it in to him did more beating than they did.

Beating children isnt the answer.

one love

Sorry blicky badger but you are way off track and part of the generation that has let things go. Regarding my views, they have worked for me and my family and a good many others of my generation. The real point is that the punishment has to come from someone who you respect, then it hurts.
It's a bit like insults that only hit home if they come from someone who's view you respect. No discipline and respect is the way to ruin.
I can not equal the brief examples from your experience. I have no personal knowledge of anyone from school who was caned and subsequently ended up in prison. There were a few rough diamonds among them but overall they were 'mostly harmless'.. In the main they all turned out to be pretty sound. I must give you some credit in that you seem to have survived so far in 'your' difficult environment, could it be the you reacted normally to your caning.
How do you think those people that you quote should have been dealt with ?

Beat a boy until he's seven...and he'll beat someone else the minute he gets a chance. Or worse.

Hi AB,

>The real point is that the punishment has to come from someone who you respect, then it hurts.

But doesn't that totally undermine the argument for tougher sentences from youth offenders? They rarely respect the authority figures handing them down. And besides - if you're agreeing that it's the emotional side of the punishment that is effective, what happens to your argument that the physical side is necessary?

Gif