h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

<< non school uniform day, means she can wear what she wants, surely.>>


Indeed, surely!

Well Apple nice of you to join a debate where you know nothing about the subject. When I need someone to show how ultimately stupid the other side of the argument is I can always rely on you

Now *non-uniform* = *whatever you want* seems to make sense and that's the completely wrong conclusion you've jumped to. Let me tell you why. How about if she wants to wear a brown shirt jack boots and a swastika arm band?

Or

A Tshirt with the slogan "you say bitch like its a bad thing"

Or

a Niggas With Attitude "F**k tha Police"

Or

A pai of roller skates and a Vivene Westwood naked cowboy Tshirt teamed with split crotch panties a a see through plastic skirt?

There are limits to everything and just because you dont UNDERSTAND the limits imposed doesnt mean that they are wrong.

"But the fact that the school is highlighting to 7 year olds that the George Cross is offensive to others, potentially racist and potentially showing a superioriness over other races just reinforces that myth rather than either ignoring it and letting them where it"

"ignoring it" Do you really think school is a place for ignorance?


"or letting them where it and explaining that there is nothing wrong in wearing the flag of your own country"

On the face of it this seems fair enough. I wear a Lions shirt to work (in a school) it contains the emblems of all four home nations. It hasnt sparked any violence or encouraged any xenophobia or racism as far as Im aware. This sounds like you have made a really good point but you use this as supporting evidence:

"there is nothing wrong in wearing the flag of your own country (like the americans do all the time) be proud of your country and your heritage.

Yeah because overbearing USasian jingoism has never onced caused any problems has it. Its never caused any Americans to decalre they practically singlehandedly won WWII. Well not in some parrallel universe meanwhile back on the planet where we live....



"And as I would assume most of those 7 year olds were born in England they too are English so how can they be offended."

Born in England

Descendant of Slaves owned by the Scottish

How on Earth can I be offended by a Rousing chorus Rule Brittania?

The answer is IM not actually offended Im outraged that a song which revels in the might of the empire does nothing to mention the crimes of the empire whilst mentioning one of the things it did to other people my anscestors.

Its sort of the same reason they dont sing Duechland Ubber Alles at holocaust remeberance events.

Of course what the British empire did werent crimes in your eyes.

Rape, murder, theft, enforcement of restrictive trade aggrements through the use of millitary force, annexation and slavery have now been downgraded from crimes against humanity and war crimes to stuff that was merely "iffy"

Next time Im in court I want you as the judge or atlest as my counsel.

one love

Blicky, you are (dileberately?) missing the point of Rule Britannia. The whole song is about how indomitable the spirit is:

"The nations not so blest as thee, Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free, The dread and envy of them all.

Still mor majestic shalt thou rise, More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies, Serves but to root thy native oak."

Have you taken a minute to consider what that means, or you have done an EXOCET impresssion onm the word 'slaves' and ignored alll else?

No Im NOT missing the point!

I can read and understand English and Im giving an honest appraisal of the bloody song, so please dont pretend you can read my mind and KNOW im pretending to misunderstand.

To paraphrase it in modern English it says:

We are harder than other nations, no one can mess with us.
Other nations sould and shall fear us, we will kick the cr@p out of them.

We will get stronger as they get weaker, hitting back will only make us madder.
"As the loud blast that tears the skies (like over an Iraqi school), we will get stronger.

No see I havent ignored all else. What a stupid thing to say just because I havent commented before now doesnt mean Ive ignored something.

onelove

>>"ignoring it" Do you really think school is a place for ignorance?<<

Agree totally - school is where the seeds are sown of our future.

I still believe in much of the ideology and concepts I learned at school. I've also been adult/adaptable enough to question and sometimes subvert them in my later life.

For example, it was only a few years ago that I realised that being modest DIDN'T mean boasting about what you did. I had been confused by the sarcastic statement "And you're so modest about that" etc.

However, I don't necessarily agree that every single 'racist' is ignorant. South African whites, for example, lived in a country steeped in racial disharmony and I'm sure at least SOME realised the differences in social/economical gulfs between black and white. If you knew this and STILL felt racist towards non-white South Africans, does that make you less or more of a racist?

Is it racism to feel that certain people/groups somehow *deserve* their situation? Intrinsically, racism is a shared belief that is somehow quite internalised. I find that quite a paradox: a shared, internalised belief.

Blicky, I didn't know whether you'd read the rest of the song or not, which is why I employed a question mark.

My reading would be:

Other countries may be conquered, Britain will stand free forever, ever time another country attempts to take us, will will only rise stronger.

It's got nothing at all to do with Britain 'kicking the crap', rather the opposite. It's a statement of freedom.

Yeah you just keep telling yourself that.

Meanwhile outside of your head the Greeks will "envy" the elgin marbles that Britain stole

And Britain will continue to get richer and stronger because of the advantages it gained from empire while the vast majority of people living ex-colonies live below the poverty line.

And everyday people in Iraq "dread" the soldiers illegally occupying their country.

Sweet dreams Kerr.

one love

Blicky, you appear to be confusing the issue of a country's wrongs with a song about said country. Just because you believe that this country has and is doing wrong does not mean that a song about that country is advocating such actions.

That would be like saying "I think John Lennon was a mysoginistic git, therefore 'Please Please Me' is an incitement to the slavery of women".

Well taht would be basing it soley on the song, a bit short sighted perhaps.

Now Im not confusing the actions with the song or saying the actions all follow the song (thanks for underestimating me again). However the lines of the song do echo real, actual things that have and are happening. They refer to them in a celebratory fashion, its not a lamentful song is it?

Adovocating theft and slavery is not what the song does for me personally no but for others, who knows. Its a little like the case of video nasties. I dont know anyone who has seen one and turned into a murderer but I do think they can change peoples attitudes to violence and can be extremely distasteful.

What Im doing is recognising that the song like so many national symbols has a deeper resonance than the words on the page or the colours on a piece of cloth up a pole, that you appear not to be able to grasp this does not mean I should just go "Oh well Im getting up set about nothing". Which is what you're attempting to convince me of and you're a long way off doing.

one love

Blicky,

A better wording of my pst would be to say let people wear the flags of thier country. Teach them what that flag *could* stand for i.e. empire etc but make them understand the negative aspects of what an empire and a countries actions can do to people. Wearing your countries flag should be a matter of accepting that what was done in the past that is unacceptable now should not be repeated but also the good things that came out of it should not be forgotten either and it is those things that should be celebrated.

The Yanks wearing their flags was just a (bad) example of people wearing their flags. It does seem that the Brits are the only people who bash themselves for who they are and are embarrassed or try not to offend others.

Overall, I do not really give a damn about a countries anthem they always say we are better than you - the winners always write the history - these days we know what the true history is.

After all that I have to say I find flags of countries stupid and like this conversation thread here just asks for trouble.

The British Empire has to be viewed in the context of time. Modern views on what is now politically and socially acceptable did not then pertain. It fueled the industrial revolution,it improved the infrastructure of countries, it established legal and politcial codes that are still the mainstay of the Commonwealth. There are successful ex Empire countries Singapore, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, Malaysia and some not yet successful such as Seirra Leone and Ghana.

I contributed to a research paper a while ago that asked if the Commonwealth would survive and the conclusion was yes because the participants wanted it to. Empire wasn't all bad.

<<'Please Please Me' is an incitement to the slavery of women".>>

You mean it isn't?

I am well aware that in the past there were much different ideas about how nations treated civilians.

Im also aware that the past is the past.

What got under my skin was that this guy claimed he was pandering to or being fenced in by some sort of PC rule and then he goes and sings a song refering to slavery with no sense of sensitivity towards the actual descendants of slaves sitting right in front of him, when the reason they were enslaved is because of the very country he was singing about.

The point I was making was that even though he and others know what they think PC is they have no idea what it is. I see a parallel here with racism in that people think that as long as they are not painting slogans on walls, hittng people or posting excrement through peoples letter boxes then they cant possibly be acting in a racist way.

one love

I agree that there should be limits to what you can wear on a non-uniform day. But the flag of the country is not one of them. If I was living in Germany, and some guy came in a day to work wearing a shirt with the German flag, should I tell him off because it offends me since they invaded Denmark once? If he was wearing it in Denmark, a case could perhaps be made for it. But if I'm offended by that, what the hell would I be doing in Germany? I don't see I have any right to tell someone they can't wear a symbol of their own country, _in their own country_.

A country should aknowledge it's mistakes. I can understand why the chinese are angry with the Japanese about those textbooks. However, Rule Britannia is a celebration of the country. You mention the good things. You don't hear Chris de Burgh singing in Lady In Red about how she cheats on her taxes, or parks illegally.

I never listen to it for long enough to find out.

Blicky, you do love a fight, don't you? Well, you're talking as your donkey guides you, as usual... all I was doing was agreeing with the woman with the 7 year old. What the hell is your problem with that?

Blicky,
I see and understand your point regarding the w**nker who sang Rule Brittania. I think this demonstrates my argument that we wont win the racist argument until we get away from the tabloid level debate and begin to act with the respect and sensitivity at a national level that you would exercise at a personal level.

If you have to live cheek by jowl with other people, everybody quickly learns to consider others feelings and how your own actions effect others. If you can't or don't learn the lessons the group becomes unhappy and moves to sort out the disruption. That could be by excluding or educating the individual(s) who cannot act in harmony with the group.

I wonder if Britain will ever realise how socially disruptive the tabloid press is?

<(as would race - an anglo-saxon convert to Islam might beat his wifw>
A strange statement to make....see...
http://www.submission.info/perspectives/women/wifebeating.html

from
http://www.submission.info/index.html

OK, I've written a new last verse to the national anthem. I expect it to be used forthwith. Everyone happy now?

We do apologise,
For the past centuries,
When we were bad;
We were expansionist,
Like all powerful countries,
We captured colonies,
Now that makes us sad.

I'm with Billy Connolly, can't we just use the Archers theme tune?