h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

calling people black, negro or *insert any colour* is discriminating when used to underline the colour difference between "you" and "them" When said without intending this difference it may/will still sound racist because it is generally accepted as racism.

"I don't either get why we have to call all Koreans "Asian American" and so on, but I dont have to call myself "Caucasian American"! "

doesn't this proves that calling people coloured is in fact discriminating and comparing with caucasian people. And that it is often used to underline that the caucasian is somehow better than the other?

And yes, the american is often used as a "geuzennaam" (I don't have a English translation or explanation handy here, any help?) or as a show of pride. But this applies only to people with the same . When used outside of the society it is often seen as racism, even though one never wanted to discriminate?

Dear Atom_Boy
"Were actually quite personalable and get along just fine with each other. (African-anericans / asian-americans / indian-americans / american-indians / mexican-americans /latino-americans.................................................). "

GET ALONG JUST FINE WITH AMERICAN INDIANS?
Dont start me on this one - just check out the unemployment rate, the infant mortality rate, the poverty and lack of federal funding for the Lakota Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota (To name just one)

The original owners of "Your" country have been persecuted beyond belief since the mid 1890's and how you can say that "You get along just fine" with them is infuriating. The whites stole the country, practised genocide, murdered, enforced abortion, made speaking their own languages illegal, enforced "Christianity" on them, wrote meaningless treaties, lied, cheated and generally did everything they could to wipe them out. Now that the once pround nations have been totally subjugated and relegated to arid and dead reservations, the American people should hang their heads in utter shame.

Dear Docter,

I believe you credit me a quote which isn't my quote.

and about this bit

"GET ALONG JUST FINE WITH AMERICAN INDIANS?
Dont start me on this one - just check out the unemployment rate, the infant mortality rate, the poverty and lack of federal funding for the Lakota Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota (To name just one)

The original owners of "Your" country have been persecuted beyond belief since the mid 1890's and how you can say that "You get along just fine" with them is infuriating. The whites stole the country, practised genocide, murdered, enforced abortion, made speaking their own languages illegal, enforced "Christianity" on them, wrote meaningless treaties, lied, cheated and generally did everything they could to wipe them out. Now that the once pround nations have been totally subjugated and relegated to arid and dead reservations, the American people should hang their heads in utter shame. "


Man, you're so right...that's what I tried to say too, I thought Leo and I also tried to give my opinion that these practices still continue these days. Besides, it's not "my" country. I'm dutch and I disaprove of the therm American, which I also said...


Anyway, yes I still think you're right...

Hi Atom_Boy

Huge apologies for the wrong quote! To who ever did say it, read my post!

I think that was Ford.
Actually, doc, you sound like you know a lot about the Native Americans' plight.
oops, skype call, no time.
please tell about it, i mean.

OK, better:
I know that Native Americans were the last group given citizenship, and that there were also laws like the Dawes Act passed, giving them land and things, if they'd leave the reservations, which clearly didn't appeal to most of them. But that is all past, and we can only deal with the present.
I've heard about that horrifying infant mortality rate. Why is it like that? Dont they have access to hospitals and modern medical science?

Have a look at Guide ID: A2909135 its a speech I found on the 6 nations Hopi prophecy.

Leo, its like the native people of africa. You cant make beggars of people for hundreds of years and then release the shackles and expect them all to suddenly be "empowered". Medicines and services cost money Leo, lots of it . . . . I'm begging to realise the hopelessness of trying to expose the American people to suffering and devastation arround the world if they are so ignorant of what's happening within their own borders. Well some of the history of these people is detailed in the link above . . . perhaps you can start there . . .

I read the beginning and skimmed the rest. I'll get back to it when I have more time,
but,
I didn't see any real explanation.

i mean, answer to my question. There was tons of explanation, and it was actually quite fascinating, but he didnt say where us white people keep our stone tablets.

Leo Alpha
You said - "But that is all past, and we can only deal with the present."

That is so, so very wrong. I will look out the facts and dates and all the rest of it for you tonight and post it tomorrow. For "The Present" though, the US government could make a start be freeing Leonard Peltier - an Oglala Souix who was fitted up on trumped up charges by the FBI following the Wounded Knee battle in the 1970's. He still sits rotting in jail for no reason. While we are at it, the US government might consider letting the Lakota have the Black Hills returned to them as well. They were given full rights of ownership of this land in a treaty, signed and sealed. The "Wasichu's" (White Man) then found gold in the Hills, Custer went in to protect the illegal mining operation and as history tells us, Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull took great exception to this and slaughtered them (Quite rightly)
Why did the Lakota feel this way? Well, the Black Hills (Or Paha Sapa to give them their correct native name) is the equivalent of the Vatican to catholics. The Lakota view the Hills as the very place where all life sprung forth, and it is the single most Holy site of the people. This land IS theirs by treaty - but the US Government renaged on that and simply chose to ignore what they signed up to. This issue is FIRMLY in the present as Lakota lawyers are still pursuing this claim today. Imagine if outsiders took the Vatican by force, carved the faces of the thieves into the side of it (Mount Rushmore) and then just laughed at the previous owners. That is EXACTLY what the white man did.

WHile Rushmore was being carved, a group of Lakota were watching. The man who did the work (Borglum) had a polish assistant (I would put his name but I will spell it wrongly - something like Korchack is how it is pronounced)
The group of Lakota asked him what he was doing. He replied "Carving the faces of our heroes" They asked him why they could not have their own heroes carved there, and he asked them who it would be. Their reply was "Crazy Horse". The polish guy then said that if they could find him a site to do the work, he would undertake it. Thunderhead mountain was the place given, and today the work continues, some 45 years later by his family. The mountain is being carved in the round, and it depicts Crazy Horse on his horse, pointing out over the plains. It depicts the scene when Crazy Horse was captured, and a sneering cavalry man said "Where are your lands now, Indian?" Crazy Horse replied by pointing out to the far plains and he said "My lands are where my dead lie buried"

As I said, I will come back with detailed dates, etc, etc tomorrow but there is so much that can be done now - today. The people are dying needlessly and the once proud Indian nation is on its knees, but the wasichu's do nothing. My heart bleeds for them.

They still haven´t gotten very far with the statue though, have they?

I would agree, you can´t just say it is the past. They still suffer because of this. Some awful things were done to the native tribes, and things need to be done to correct this. And giving back some of the land would be a way to start.

Well said and thanks for the support!
Re the Crazy Horse monument - you are right, it still has a long long way to go but it is huge and the entire mountain is being carved, not just a face as at Rushmore. On my last visit somebody there told me that the arm part alone was long enough and wide enough to serve as a runway for a 747 to land on it!

<>


I might suggest that if you find you have time to post further here you would also have time to do more than skim the information that was offered to you by another researcher.

At which point, after having read the information properly, you might be able to express a better reply than 'I didn't see any real explanation'.

If you choose not to read the information and continue posting in ignorance, then how can you expect others to take your opinions seriously?


az

Azahar, be reasonable please. I asked about infant mortality. The link was a Hopi prophesy six miles long. I got the gist of it, and I intend to finish reading it too.

A question about the black hills: what is the state of their current population. I mean, does anyone *live* there, or is it a national park kind of place, or is it just a big area of mountains?

But more to the point, I think, is the state of life on the reservations. I've heard that it's abysmal. *Can* they leave the reservations, and if yes, why dont they, and if not, why? (if that wasn't clear, read it again.)

OK, I read it all. How 'bout you, Azahar?

Quote: A question about the black hills: what is the state of their current population. I mean, does anyone *live* there, or is it a national park kind of place, or is it just a big area of mountains?

Leo. Jesus Christ man. People "Live" there, yes. It is a national park, yes - they also mine Uranium and gold from them. Is it "Just" a big area of mountians? NO. It is the single most holy place in Indian history. It equates to the Vatican, or Mecca, or Jerusalem, or the Golden shrine in Amritsar. It is absolutely CENTRAL to the Lakota's very fibre of their being. Personally, I do not care if it is 20 or two hundred million - THEY HAVE NO RIGHT BEING THERE. It belongs to the Lakota nation by treaty signed by the President of the time. They should be summarily thrown off with no recompense. At all.

You then said - But more to the point, I think, is the state of life on the reservations. I've heard that it's abysmal. *Can* they leave the reservations, and if yes, why dont they, and if not, why?

What do they not leave? Because of ingrained bigotry of the Wasichu (White Man). The people (The Lakota) once OWNED most of the Dakotas, Wyoming and Nebraska along with the Cheyenne and multiple other connected tribes. The same goes for the Apache who OWNED most of present day Arizona and New Mexico. The entire country was THEIRS.
Why do they not leave? I cant believe you ask that. On the reservations, life is truly desolate and appalling but it is the only place they can have any kind of freedom of spirituality, to be close to the land and who they once were. If they were scattered across the country, then the final annihilation of the indigenous people would be complete.
What a proud moment that would be - to totally exterminate a variety of Human that had more right than any white man to be there. Sounds a bit like the Nazi Holocaust doesnt it? Only this extermination is being done by stealth and the people succombing have barely any friends to help them.

I get the picture. So are you basically suggesting we kick every white man out of the Dakotas and Arizona?

Happy Birthday Leo. Genuinely, I mean that. But back to your post.
Dakota's and Arizona? Is that all?
You are plainly not listening, and I have tried to explain in words of two syllables. Let me concentrate on the Lakota nation which I know the best and am best informed on. Would I kick the white people out? Yes. In a blink. Given the choice, I would do so at gunpoint. They have no right to be there - at all. Ever. You still do not see the full picture - the entire country now known as the USA was taken by force, murder and subjugation against the wishes of the people who were there. Native American women had their breasts cut off and made into tobacco pouches, after they were repeatedly raped – but enough emotive details. I said I would do some research tonight for dates and information you could read and I have done so. At your discretion, please look at the following sites for more detail on unemployment, Infant mortality and more.
Let me summarise for the Pine Ridge reservation alone:
• 80% unemployment.
• Poorest county in the USA. Average family income is just $3,700 per year.
• High rates of alcoholism, heart disease, and cancer.
• Extremely high rate of diabetes. Almost half of the population over 40 on the Pine Ridge Reservation have diabetes.
• Life expectancy for men is 48 years. Life expectancy for women is 52.
• Highest infant mortality rate in the USA
The Paha Sapa (Black Hills) treaty was signed on April 29th 1868. The Black Hills of Dakota are sacred to the Sioux Indians. In the 1868 treaty, signed at Fort Laramie and other military posts in Sioux country, the United States recognized the Black Hills as part of the Great Sioux Reservation, set aside for exclusive use by the Sioux people. However, after the discovery of gold there in 1874, the United States confiscated the land in 1877. To this day, ownership of the Black Hills remains the subject of a legal dispute between the U.S. government and the Sioux. Page 2 bears the signatures of the American commissioners who represented the United States (including Lt.-Gen. William T. Sherman) , while page 3 features the names and markings of the Sioux chiefs. You can see high resolution images of the treaty:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/american_originals/sioux.html

Other sites you might like to review are at:
http://www.lakotamall.com/allies/pineridgefacts.html
http://www.plenty.org/pb18_3/pineridge183.html
http://www.mnisose.org/profiles/oglala.htm
If you need more convincing of the crimes committed against the people, I have pages. Please read the sites I have provided, and please understand the magnitude of what is going on.

" 80% unemployment.
Poorest county in the USA. Average family income is just $3,700 per year.
High rates of alcoholism, heart disease, and cancer.
Extremely high rate of diabetes. Almost half of the population over 40 on the Pine Ridge Reservation have diabetes.
Life expectancy for men is 48 years. Life expectancy for women is 52."

So it's a slum. slums get razed. No problem.

Even if a lot of awful things have been done, remember they have not been done by the people living there today. I´m not going to say the Natives are being treated that well today either. But kicking perhaps millions of people off the land at gunpoint would not be a fair solution, punishing them for really just being related to the people who did these crimes. What if it then does turn out that there were people living in North America before, who were wiped out by the Native Americans. Would you then kick them out as well?