h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

there is a book called the case for christ, cant remember thw author.


this book tries to show the evidence for God. not just from the bible but also from history.

a good read im told though its still on my list

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307/sr=8-1/qid=1163765480/ref=pd_ka_1/202-9226423-4205456?ie=UTF8&s=books

This the chap?

That is an excellent book, Nicky, I read it last year..

Benjamin,

On your 680 post.

Maybe God has turned up, and is waiting for you to reciprocate.

The evidence you may be looking for may be there ready for you to see for yourself if you would but look. Though it may consist of somethings other than empirical/analytic evidence. It may be a reside in your emotions, or a personal experience. Why? Becuase a lover wants his loved one to return the love freely. If you where to be given objective evidence - where is your free will. It would not so much be an invitation, but a summons! The evidence you are looking for is going to be subjective I suspect.

Afterall your love for your spouse is not always something you can confirm to your spouse through objective evidence, it's something you subjectively feel and experience mainly. Keep yourself open to that kind of input & response, is all I suggest for now.

And in the end what have you to lose? It's not that you are asked to retire your reason, or give up your conscience. You should retain those fully switched on at all times, just add a little bit of faith to the mix to start with. Faith that there is meaning out there, and that you are loved and valued as something infinitely special, and are being invited - even now.

If you need something to tip you over into giving it a go actually there are material benefits to faith in the here and now, for example in handling suffering and greater mental and physical health as firmly evidenced by scientific study. Have a look at Pascals Wager. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

Find a quiet place by yourself and try some simple meditiation, and prayer. Ask God what he wants of you, what he REALLY wants of you, and test your consicence with the yardstick of Love. If the guidance you get is centered in Love - it's likely reliable, since God is Love.

Afterall you have a good name (Binyamin) which means "son of the south" or "son of the right hand". Benjamin in the Old Testament was the twelfth and youngest son of Jacob and the founder of one of the southern tribes of the Hebrews!

Give it a go, tell us what happens - as I say what have you to lose! and what have yout gain? (hint - everything that has real value in the end)

There are various problems with Pascal's Wager.

Perhaps the main one is that if you do accept its assumption that it is better to believe in god, and thus avoid being sent to hell for eternity as a result of not believing, which god should you believe in?

The Christian god will send you to hell if you don't believe in him, unfortunately so will the Muslim god. Numerous other gods will punish you in the same way for worshipping (from their point of view.) false rivals. So you really are damned if you do and damned if you don't. There is no more reason to believe in the Muslim's invisible friend, than the Christian's.

(See www.godchecker.com - it's awfully crowded up there).

Another significant problem is the sheer calculating cynicism of *choosing* to believe, on the grounds that it's a safer bet than not believing (even if you could know which of the hundreds of available gods is the *correct* one). Is this a position any self-respecting god would accept? It seems to fundamentally reject the 'leap of faith' christists are inclined to, in favour of cynical self-interest.

>>What I think - is that if you make an effort to open your mind to God, and sincerely seek him with the whole of your human faculty, you will find him. He's waiting on you.

This 'balance of probabilities' approach hardly squares with your own view, p4t.

As for my views on salvation see my entry on The Great Divorce (a review of CS Lewis work A16172507. I think of afterlife (when I do - and I try to think of things here and now mostly) as our Fathers place of Many Mansions, its not an exclusive place, it is more inclusive. Let me explain that a bit...

For me there is just one God, but many god's of other traditions are 'pre-figured' in that. That's just my POV.

Eg., Allah is just the arabic word for God. Christian Palestinians, Lebanese/Maronites and other Churches of the East in their services pray to Allah. It's the same chap, albeit looked at sometimes from different 'reality tunnels'. Another example is Melkezidek, whose name means 'righteous one' the King of Salem ('Peace', the early name for Jerusalem). In the Abrahamic tradition of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, Abraham recognizes him as beleiving in the same one God most high. The make a sacrifice of bread and wine (pre-figuring the passion of Christ some say). When looked at inclusively the exclusive language of some fundamentalists is makde redundant.

With this in mind there is simply not an argument to be made 'against' God for fairness in salvation. Afterall if God is Just how could it be otherwise?


As for Pascals Wager for me it does articulate the point - "what is their to lose", take it at that level (looking to the positive aspect rather than the negative). It is not cynicism to be positive, though you can argue that its cynical to be a nihilist.

Look, I am human(ish) right? I have a limtited number of ways of perceving the physical world, whether things are 'there' or not. My chair is there. My hamsters are most definitely there. God ISN'T. I'm sorry there's only a limited number of things available to my sphere of perception (God should know that shouldn't he?) and if he wants me to know he's there, God is just going to have to work within that sphere.
Why would seeing God take away my free will? It's a bit egotistical for God to think I'd automatically love him isn't it? Besides, I don't think love is a free choice anyway- why would so many people fall in love with people who are bad for them? I don't think I've ever chosen to love anyone, I just do, or not.

What have I got to loose? Well, actually, I am beng asked to resign my reason. That's my big fear, I can't trust intuition or gut feeling or emotions or anything, because they're not generally very reliable. The world is full of people who thought 'told' them to do all kinds of things, some of these people have mental illnesses. I'm not saying that most people who believe in God have mental illnesses, obviously, it's just that I'd have to be REALLY sure before I started trusting anything other than my usual means for accepting something as real, and with something as important as the existence, or not, of God, I think I'd want to be even more certain than usual.

The trouble with Pascal's wager is that, by that reasoning, as has been said before, you could believe in ANYTHING. Father Christmas- what have you got to loose? It's not really a system for exploring a complex and fascinating universe is it? I might as well carry dice around with me.

As a matter of interest, I have tried exactly as you suggest in the past, at my wife's instigation. I don't want to rule the possibility of God existing, that's why I'm having this conversation, but I haven't found him yet.

Benjamin means, I believe, 'favoured son' or 'right hand of God'.

>>and if he wants me to know he's there, God is just going to have to work within that sphere.<<

it wont work like that. God is there and you have to come to him. there is plenty of evidence around for both God and Christ. when you start seeking God you will find him.


of course there is the problem of predestination....

the question isnt, is the a god.
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but if there is a god, why over the centuries have billions died, in wars, why are people like africans,told there way was wrong, by missioneries.
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why is a child born, never to even live a hour or less.
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why have we illnesses that have no known cure, people that are making bombs and viruses to kill millions in the next war.
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religion is the main cause of all thats happening in the world,
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im an aethiest,and now one can tell me diff,jim

the churches answer(god works in misterious ways)

Nicky,

- What do you mean by the problem of predestination?

- I'm sorry, I know it's sounds impatient, but I've got enough to worry about without trying to find God when he, claiming to be a supreme being and supposedly wanting me to love him, can't even be arsed to show up. Is he unaware that people spend their lives grappling with complex real world problems like getting a job and trying to pay their council tax without incurring crippling debts and that by saying 'ah yes, love and salvation can be yours, but you must find me first aha!' is just making things unnecesarily complicated? If it won't work like that then it won't work and I'll just have to whorship satan instead.

one of the great things about being a christian is i dont have to worry about life. God always provides. if i ask him to help with anything then he wll so there is no need to worry about anything.

satan cant help you like God can.

God is already near. you dont have to look far to find him.

plus God sent his only son to die for us. hes already come to us but we have to return.


predestination is the idea that God chooses who will belive in him in advance and therefore no matter how much you tell someone about God is he hasnt chosen them they wont believe. God brings people in to other peoples lives fo a reason and often it is to help them come to him and grow in their faith.

predestination isnt a popular idea. some peoplereally belive in it while others dont. there is passages in th bible that could be interpreted to relate to predestination

You'll have to excuse me if I sounded a little bad tempered, it's the way I woke up this morning.

You're suggesting that God sorts out your life for you? God gets you a job, sorts out your friends etc...? Is that correct? I would think that's not a view you'd get total support for, in fact I'm pretty sure Rowan William's specficically criticised the 'cosmic wishlist' idea, although he was criticing Noel Edmunds, so I can't complain about that.

I know a woman at my wife's church who believes that everything is all part of the Lord's plan, and her life if frankly miserable because she never does anything about anything. Maybe God finds her as annoying as everybody else does, poor woman.

If God had offered, I wouldn't have gone with the crucify your only son plan. I'm perfectly happy to stand up and account for my own sins, so I really don't see that this has helped me a great deal.

you have to pay for your sins. this means going to hell.

there has only ever been one man who was perfect and not sinned, Jesus.

every single human who ever lived would have been condemed to die in hell with out the sacrifice of Jesus.

he payed for all the sins of the human race.

it was a fantastic sacrifice.

by doing this God allowed us to be forgivven and enjoy a relationship with us.

part of believing in him is letting him take control of our lives. its not us who chooses which jobs we get God controls it. i dont worry abou getting jobs, obviusly i have to apply for ones but Gods plan will be worked out in the job i get. he doesnt give us what we want and sometimes w have to suffer. but its through suffering that we become closer to him.

Okay so let me get this straight;

I have sinned, as has everyone else. For doing this I will go to hell along with all the rapists, murderers, child-abusers and genocidal war lords.

The only way out of this is for God to let Jesus be crucified.

I have to suffer to get closer to God.

God controls my life, so I have no real choice of any significance, accept that I can choose to love God, although if I don't choose to love God I get to go to hell for all the awful things I have doutbless done throughout my wicked life.

This man's a lunatic, how can I want any part of any of this? It's like being trapped in the matrix.

Benjamin,

There are different ways at looking at Theism of course. Somethings Christians say...

a) We are all sinners. Our weakness is our strength in a certain logic, as we who sin, know it and regret it, recognize the need for support. If we where all perfect we would not need God's grace (God is perfect and we are not)

b) Jesus bridged with the cross the chasm that exists in the argument about 'Justice' and 'Love', that develops from point a) above (we are hopelssly imperfect when left by ourselves). As we are all sinners, the just action is for us to be condemned as such. But Jesus's expression of sacrificial Love in his crucifixion overcomes this, and we are saved - if we sincerly follow his way. If you look at scripture you'll see this action as being pre-figured (i.e., planned) from the beginning. Christians read the Bible in this way, seeing a purpose and plan to reconciling man to God.

c)We all suffer irrespective of our belief or denial of God's existence. Belief in God and his Love of us, expresed in the passion of Christ, gives us meaning in the 'red teeth and claw' of an otherwise futile and suffering existence.

d) My view (following the apologetics of CS Lewis) on God's will for my life, is that he calls me to freely come to him, to follow his will and not mine. Lewis says "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'".

e) Lewis also expressed the 'trilemma' position for ones view of Christ. To read what he said in scripture. You have to either accept him as the Son of God, believe he was a lunatic or a wicked/demonic entity. You are not left with choice, pick the one you think is true. For me his moral philosophy is sane above and beyond all others. He goodness manifest above and beyond all others. When I look at scripture I see an amazing series of revelations step by step. I see ordinary people doing extraordinary things becuase of faith. I am in awe of a purposed pattern I see in reality. But most of all when I look into my being, I simply sense it is true. Thus I believe he was indeed the Son of Man, the Logos - our Saviour.

In your earlier postings you still cling to a verificationist view of life, the universe and everything, i.e., if something is not logically material, analytical and/or emprical then it does not exist. Many agree to this POV - afterall its a very useful mode of rational reasoning for science. I do so for myself when dealing with questions that can be adressed in such a manner.

But not all issues are addressable this way. It is not the 'whole story' of reason. There is more to our understanding, knowledge and wisdom to arrive at 'truth' than by reasoning by rationality ALONE. Of course it requires a degree of faith to invest an emotional feeling or spirtual subjective experience with 'truth'.

But maybe that is just the way it is.

God may have simply choose to call us that way (becuase personal faith is important to him). Maybe in that light it's simply no good complaining that it's inconvenient to YOUR preference for a Logical Positivist expression/evidence being made. If I am right you are just going to have to get over YOUR dissapointment that God does not work the way that YOU would prefer, giving objective evidence that compells you (and all other fair minded rationalists).

That's what I am saying when I say you are putting 'God in the dock', and that God, who loves you, would not wish to compel your responding love as a consequence of a rational 'summons', written in black and white on legal paper, posted with verifiable registration and delivered by hand to your official domicile.

If God is perfect Love, Truth, Justice, etc., it's probably best to approach him with a bit of humility, AND on his terms!

As for fear of the leap. I appreciate that it's a potentially reckless one and risk giving up your rational reason. But as I mentioned earlier for me it's not becuase you do not have to 'give up' reason, just expand its defintion to contain aspects that many humans do (and I suspect you do as well) every day of our lifes. If there is an aspect that is a 'giving up', then it's like this... it's giving up looking at the world in the monochrome of Logical Positivism only and beginning to look at life, the universe and everthing in full living colour - useing ALL of your faculties of understanding.

Is it safe? If you sincerely approach him. With all of your faculties switched on. And you look to be guided by Love - I think you will be OK.

Thanks for keeping with the conversation. I am quite convinced that since you are demonstrating your love and concern for your spouse beliefs and making a sincere search accordingly that you will eventually come to an end that will bear fruit. But open up your being. The seed must break out of its shell if it is to grow.

Jimcracker (responding to 689 and 690);

Are you being diligent with the truth, when you say 'im an aethiest,and now one can tell me diff' Perhaps you are a theist and just having a bad trip?

Of course it is fair for you to make your own subjective position and hold to it, but as Plato once remarked ...

You are young, my son, and, as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters.

See http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2745.html

I recommend keeping an open mind therefore.


Some possible A to your Q's (most of your questions deal with a subject called Theodicy):

1/"but if there is a god, why over the centuries have billions died, in wars, why are people like africans,told there way was wrong, by missioneries."
Belief in God does not insulate us from suffering, rather it allows us to give it meaning and perhaps learn from it better than we would otherwise. Much wrong has been done through imperial, colonial exploitation of religion. But I suspect for every clear act of human selfishness in the name of religion, there are 10 alturistic acts of charity, kindness and support. Somethings that rarely make it to headline news.
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2/ "why is a child born, never to even live a hour or less."
Suffering is something we cannot answer with pat responses that will simply clean everthing up. Maybe suffering is God's megaphone that something is wrong in us and our world, to wake us up and do something about it. Maybe an unwanted orphan is someone else's child they always wanted to cherish but could not have. If we have God we have an opportunity to bring meaning to suffering, without God we have a futility of existence.
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3/ "why have we illnesses that have no known cure, people that are making bombs and viruses to kill millions in the next war."
What people do without objective morals centered on 'Loving ones neighbour' does indeed result in the evil you mention. As for disease, again this exists with or without our personal belief in God. Perhaps disease fullfils a function for evolutionary purposes. Not all Theist's reject evolution, perhaps it is a mechanism that God uses for his purposes (e.g., developing sentience).
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4/ "religion is the main cause of all thats happening in the world,"
In a sense I agree. For anything to happen and for us to percieve it, maybe we need God. But I don't think that is what you meant. I believe all that is evil in this world, i.e., 9/11 Terrorism, Wars for Oil, Hunger, etc., is becuase Man looks after his own interests and not his neighbors first and foremost. Many take religion as a tool to shape it to justify their lusts, ego and desires, without sincere reflection of what a God of Love is all about.

If you wish to be Diligent for Truth. You need to be willing to be a Pilgrim, i.e., 'someone who journeys in foreign lands'. In this context that means exapnding your mind to consider alternative viewpoints, and be willing to change your mind according to what you learn along your way - but feel free to tell me differently

There's something that bothers me about this whole 'sin' business. Let me give a concrete example. Suppose I loose my temper and yell and you, maybe I even say something insulting. That would be a sin wouldn't it? Now both parties have contributions to make; I can (and, obviously, should) apologise for loosing my temper and yelling at you. You, whether you get an apology or not, can choose to forgive me. Perhaps it would be better for both of us if we made an affirmative choice, but the point is, God doesn't need to forgive me, because I haven't done anything to him, so I can't see him as being essential to this process. Now I know some Christians who will say that God can 'be with you' either in seeking the courage to apologise or the 'grace' as people call it, to forgive, but that still seems to me to make him peripheral, rather than as central as people seem to be suggesting.

Pilgrim has question my reasons for being reluctance to abandon the 'path of reason' if you like, in favour of the path of faith,as only it will lead me to God. So here's my problem. If I reason, I follow a process. I look at evidence, I decide what I can be certain of, and I try to prove one way or another what I cannot. There is a system, and anything that I currently think is true is there to be shot down and disprove, and I will accept this new proof. There are countless examples, as you doubtless all know, of recieved wisdom being disprove in this way. So as long as I follow the path I know that, even if what I currently beleive to be true is in fact false, I have used the best evidence and soundest logic available to me at the time, and hopefully the truth will emerge with continued exploration and study.

However, if I choose the path of faith, there are so many chance occurences. Let us say I decide to take the leap of faith and belief in God. Who's God? Yes, the God's of all of the major religions are fairly simillar, but he has given each set different instructions, and that simplification ignores, as I think Fanny pointed out many moons ago, the polytheistic cultures who whorship many Gods. Naturally you would encourage me to follow the Christian God (except anarchistduck, if he was here, who would presumably suggest Allah) and that would, in all likelihood, be the one I'd end up with. Because I am in the west and I am predominantly surrounded by Christians I end up with a particular God. Not because I have weighed up the pros and cons of all the many choices and worked out which one is best against a series of criteria. Yes, this may be the way people arrive at their faith but (and I know this may come across as offensive, but it gives me cause for concern so I might as well raise it and seek your forgiveness in advance) it's also how some people decide that the voice in their TV set told them to go out and murder the bloke next door. Now I know a lot of these people are mentally ill, but 'faith' doesn't have an irrisistable track record of getting key decisions right, and it does have a worrying tendency to stir up (not always positive) emotions. That is why I have grave reservations about faith as the way to anything.

i think you have just grasped the sin and forgiveness ben.

you know that when you hurt someone else you must apologise and its up to them to forgive you.

God asked for us to come to him to ask for forgiveness for our sins. he doesnt just forgive us though he wants to punish the sins. instead of punishing us he punised his son. this allows us to be forgiven and not punished and therefore have a relationship with him.

Let me try and be concise (for a change!).

Para 1. God is not peripheral to the sin between one man and another. Your example is of an offense between two parties, but becuase we have a creator that has made us aware of the natural law of justice and charity, you not only sin against your neighbor but also against God's law. When you steal an apple from a grocer. The grocer does not prosecute you, the state does.

Para 2. Ben, please let me say this just one last time. I do not ask you to give up reason for faith. For me you need BOTH switched on 100%, it is not an either or scenario. God wants the whole of your being not just a atrophied part. I think I must be very clumsy in not getting my point across well, but when I say "reason", I mean more than what you are saying I suspect. I think you are saying "rationality", which is an aspect of "reason". I want you to consider other reasoning faculties, such as your emotional and spiritual intelligence. When you 'sense' the stolen apple from the grocers, you; see, smell, touch, taste and hear it (as your crunch into it). You don't diminish the sense of sight, by using the other faculties, you augment them. You 'know' an apple by useing the whole of your being.

Para 3. The thing about the Christian God is that there is just one. It is a God of Love. You have to trust yourself a bit (have faith). Deeply ask yourself these three questions:

a) Can you sense that it is an authentic attribute that God is the perfection of Love?
b) Can you sense that Jesus Christ's moral teachings are a perfect guide for how we should live our lives?
c) Can you sense that the Spirit of Love, that exists between the Father and Son, also move within you. And that this is this calling you - Ask what does it want from you?

If you can find answers to these questions, that are positive and loving (that's how your discern their truth). You can make the next steps later on. You will have the Christian meta-narrative in mind, heart, body and soul. First steps first though.