h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

No, actually we are not at each other's throats, Malaclypse.

az

Sorry!
(Scared by the frosty tone)
I'll go, then...

It's ok, Malaclypse.
Re azahar, I'll read the article again. I just thought she'd like my take on it, but it would seem not.

OK, i know i'm getting in on this conversation a wee bit late, but i thought i'd give my two penn'orth anyway.

It's all very well to hypothesise and say that you believe that abortion is wrong, but the fact is that until you are in that situation yourself, with something growing in you, you don't know.
Maybe you will know that this little bundle of cells is a human being already with a right to life.
Maybe you'll decide that no; it's just a bundle of cells, nothing more, and you aren't ready to be a mother.
But, as I say, until you are in that situation, you can't know.

della -- i really don't think that either you or adele has been "shot down," rather, you engaged in a discussion with major emotional issues and were ... ummm ... out-logicked. as far as i can tell, teh main point of the anti-abortion stance is that a fetus and a person are teh same thing, but the pro-choice stance is that it's everybody's own decision, whatever you beleive, and that it's wrong to impose beliefs because there are so many details affecting anyone's decision wit this issue. i see your side and i can respect it, for you. and as kate mentioned, until you're in a situation where abortion is an option, it's impossible to know exactly where you stand. obviously i have my own biases, but the pro-choice side seems to make much more sense.

no hostility intended, we need both sides here for any debate at all. i admire your conviction!

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (an american, civil rights activist, Reverend and womaniser) is to my mind one of the greatest people of our time. In many ways he is a hero and a role model to me.

One of the things that he taught and followed himself was the pursuit of peaceful protest. That is why I try to hold my temper, to never strike out against anyone if they and I do not agree.

Della I have never struck you or Adele, not even Nerd. So why do you try to act as if I am some sort of monster you have to fear. All I ever try to do is find the truth, tell it to others who might ask adn debate with others when we can not agree and yes refute others when I know that they are wrong.

Some of the things you have posted have tried to suggest that only pro-lifers care about life. Not true.

That men are the main group who are pro choice and try to force women into abortion. This may be true in all the cases you know of but is not necessarily true for all cases.

That you know a lot more about adoption than I "ever will". That you know a lot more about adoption than me right now is possible but it also means you are making a huge assumption about your depth and my lack of knowlegde on the subject. It also means that your are making an immense assumption about my inability to learn more ("ever will")




I dont go around assuming that I am smarter than other people even when they are dumb enough to make stupid comments about their alleged intellectual superiority.

As I understand it abortion is a feminist and has always been seen as such, as I understand the majority of pro choice campainghers are women and are feminists.

Pro choice, means just that pro a womans right to choose. Whilst it is wrong to force a woman into an abortion is it equally wrong to force a woman to give birth.

I personally was always under the illusion that the Pro lifers were men who would never have to suffer the humilating painful indiginity of giving birth and saw it as a punishment for women who had sinned.

hi Della,

<>

In fact I read your take and responded to it. That perhaps you had not read both sides of the argument stated in a less biased and less emotional manner.

I also said it was a tough call. Deciding if and when to 'pull the plug' on someone who is only physically alive with apparently no awareness and no brain activity. In other words, a human 'vegetable' as they sometimes call it. I don't agree that just pulling the plug and leaving the person's body to starve to death is a humane way to 'allow someone's body to die'. But what other way is possible? A lethal injection? I don't know.

Have you ever read The Diving Bell and the Butterfly by Jean-Dominique Bauby? Here is part of a review of the book:

<>

Of course, this was the case of a person who was almost totally physically impaired (except for the ability to move one eye) but his mind was still quite active. What of cases when the person does not respond at all? As in the case of this woman? Her parents 'believe' she responds and is aware, yet the general medical opinion is that she is brain dead. I really feel undecided about what is the right thing to do in these situations.

az

Malaclypse,

<<(Scared by the frosty tone)>>

On another thread you posted that I thought I was 'superior' and then you come here and make a glib comment about Della and I being at each other's throats. Is there a point to this?

If you want to respond to any of my postings and argue against what I have stated, then fine. But if you just want to pop onto threads and make personal comments about people, then I think a 'frosty tone' is not a totally out-of-line response to expect.

Della and I are not at each other's throats. We do disagree on many things and so far, I think, we have not turned it into a personal bashing session. Though I think Della gets more emotional in her postings than I do, but I try to understand that. Because I also used to post things more emotionally but then found that I wasn't able to get my point across properly that way. That it was better to take a deep breath, back off a bit, and then just try to deal with the issue. So, if I ever sound to some like I am coming across as 'superior' or 'patronizing' at times I can only say (and I have said) that this is never my intention. Since I neither feel that I am superior to anybody nor in a position to be patronizing.

You see, going from one extreme to another - posting very emotionally and then attempting to post with little or no emotion - takes some time to work out. So maybe right now I am sounding a bit aloof. But I am working on my ability to participate in public forum discussions and state my opinions as clearly and as unemotionally as possible.

az

So has er Nerd forsaken this thread now?

Well, I certainly have. Had my say, now I'll go my way. Bye!

Chickadee, have *you* been in that position? I ask because Kate raised the point. Adele has, and our other sister,(by which I mean being pregnant under less than ideal circumstances.) and I have had children also.
I don't accept we've been 'out-logicked' at all. But as Kate says, it's an emotional subject.

Hi, Z. >>As I understand it abortion is a feminist and has always been seen as such, as I understand the majority of pro choice campainghers are women and are feminists. <<
I take it you mean a feminist issue... but I disagree that it always has been, at least in the sense you mean. Nineteenth and early 20th century feminists were all 'pro-life', and a significant number of 21st century feminists are pro-life. Sure, there are pro-life men, but your assumption that they are pro-life only to oppress women is unfair and untrue. Studies have shown that journalists (in the USA) are overwhelmingly pro-choice or pro-abortion, by about 94%! It stands to reason then, that they would like to present pro-life people as being the barking loonies that a fringe handful (again mostly in the USA) are. Also, to present them as mostly male. I am in touch with a network of pro-life feminists in NZ and in the UK...

I've read that book, and loved it. I must point out that he died, but naturally. Many people with variants of 'locked-in' syndrome recover, such as if they have Guillain-Barre, which is caused by a virus. Any relative or doctor putting someone like a woman with that whose biography I read "out of her misery" should be shot, as that particular woman recovered in 5 months!
There is a little verse:
'Thou must not kill/But need not strive/Pointlessly to keep alive' sums up my position.
I wish you wouldn't ignore what I am saying about domestic violence in Terri Schiavo's case - I think it's relevant, and if you were the person I thought at first that you were, you would to!

The point I was making was that feminist arguments can either be used to support the pro life, or pro choice movement.

It isn't really a case of men verus women at all. Though I once made a point in a ethics and law tutourial that I don't think that men have an equal standing to women when debating abortion - they can't truely imagine the horror of childbirth.

Z, once again, I'd like to ask - first, are you a man or a woman? Second, have you had a child? I ask not to make any point, but because I wonder. My experience is that sure, childbirth *is* horrific. But it's forgotten when it's over. Completely. (I don't mean the experience, I mean the horror.) It wasn't fun, especially my first (I was 18, things went pear-shaped)but it's not something to get PTSD over.

Nerd unsubbed some time back but did acknowledge that he needed to do more research and that there was a need for a termination of pregnancy in some extreme circumstances. I would try to find the post but it would take a while. it was about a month ago i think. And to be fair it was a post showing that he had at least taken on board what was said and had learnt enough to realise it wasnt as straightforward as he had first thought.

we can all have our preconceived ideas about we would/wouldn't do in any situation. but it is only when faced with it that you can discover what you truly feel. This is true on all things, but particularly such emotive issues as euthanasia, termination of pregnancy (which i believe is how it is referred to generally by the medics, not abortion) rape, whatever.

We all think that "if someone tried to do x to me i would kick them in the balls and scream my head off" etc In truth - most women don't do this. So as i said, we all think and believe what we would do in a situation but actually being in a situation can test the strongest of morals,opinions,religion or views.

Is that important?

I'm male but I try to imagine what it would be like

I do know that once a women is pregant, if she wants to continue with the pregnancy she has a choice bettween a major operation (a C section) and the horrific experience of childbirth.

Not every woman forgets it instantly, not every woman bonds with her child either.

People do get PTSD over childbirth, I have personally met patients who have on my psychiatry attachement.

I am a female to male transsexual, though I don't count it as important, at the time of this particular tutourial I was female. Maybe that has influnced my view on childbirth, actually of course it has. I tend to think of it has the ablity to see the best of both worlds. But I expect you will see it as not understanding either.

Sure, I know some women *do* have horrific experiences and react very badly to them - post-partum psychosis can be very serious. But probably 90% of the women I know have had children (even some of the lesbians) and I well remember my mother's generation telling horror stories with gloomy relish, that as one by one, we grew up, married and had children, they would hastily tell us to forget.
About your transexualism, I would not presume to jump to conclusions about what experiences you have had, or whether it gives you a better or worse view of both sides. I understand that female to male is very rare...
I should have made it clear that in my experience, and in the experience of 90% of the mothers I have known, childbirth was nothing to get PTSD about - although I am aware that some women have had different and altogether much more traumatic challenges. All I am saying is that isn't the norm, horror isn't usual.