h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

We've got pretty off topic here, Nerd42 has unsubbed, Adele shockingly seems to be developing glimmerings of common sense, azahar is morphing into Andrew Dworkin and I'm arguing with Blues again. The unsubscribe button is looking good... but for now.

">And because we don't have the money, we don't have the power. Simple.<
If it was that simple then we'd all still be living as serfs."

And we're not?

"But I guess it's not my problem if you've been browbeaten into submission by the system."

I prefer to think of it as working the system for my own self interest. What do YOU do?

"Interesting though that a man who can spend so much of his time campaigning for something as essentially meaningless as the Rules of H2G2 can't use the same intelligence and energy to affect real change in the real world."

What makes you think I don't? Just that I don't talk about it?

"And since when did the fact that something has been that way for centuries make it acceptable?"

I didn't say it was acceptable. I implied it was inevitable. Wars are unacceptable. They're also going to happen regardless of what we do. Iraq was the perfect demonstration - over a million people on the streets, and still we went to war for oil. I didn't waste my time marching because it's so obviously pointless.

"I notice you won't take the challenge on the rate of violent death, as well."

I don't deal drugs or frequent inner cities at night. That reduces the potential for me suffering a violent death. I don't honestly much care about anyone else, but they're welcome to follow my lead...

"Well f*ck me."

For THAT, I'd need something a little more robust than a condom. Like a few feet of concrete...

"I didn't know there were still parts of this Sceptred Isle where they hadn't heard of condoms."

I've heard of them, and use them, now and for many years. I'm certainly old enough not to trust women any more...

"That Branson man's a complete waste of time."

The third thing we agree on this year.

"If you're gonna shag it, bag it, to quote the old slogan. To do anything else is a stupidly irresponsible attitude in this day and age"

Absolutely right. It really would be extremely stupid to expect a woman to take responsibility for what happens in her body as a result of consenting sex, and irresponsible in the extreme for a man to actually take their word for it if they claim to have done so. You're so right - one should never consider a woman capable of acting like an adult.

"If you aren't gonna take the responsibility for the contraception ...then be prepared to take responsible for the resulting pregnancy."

WHY, please, is this phrase only ever directed at men? Why, given that, as women so often bleat, we're not the ones who get pregnant, are we charged with sole responsibility for preventing it?

"You'll get no sympathy from me if the CSA come knocking and your excuse is 'I thought she was on the pill'."

Oh, I know that, which is why now and for at least the last ten years I wouldn't trust any woman who claimed she would be prepared to take responsibility for contraception. I ALWAYS take that responsibility - the law itself, as you point out, does not recognise a woman's ability to, and places all the onus on the man. I accept that responsibility, but please don't expect me to do so with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. It stinks, but that's the world.

">I personally know a woman who has lied to two different men ...She went out with the express intention of getting pregnant.<
Boots sold out of condoms had they? Or no change for the machine in the pub. Gimme a break."

I don't know about you, but I've been in situations where I've been asked NOT to use a condom. To do so in such cases is to explicitly demonstrate that you do not trust the woman - that you believe her to be a liar and untrustworth. It usually spoils the mood, and usually at a rather crucial moment, and I've had to do it not once but twice. I have great sympathy for any man who actually trusts a woman in that situation and pays for that mistake for the rest of his life. I DON'T trust women in that situation, and it's cost me a couple of shags - no great loss, compared to the alternative.

">That attitude was good enough for my father, and it's good enough for me.<
Maybe something for *you* to think about there."

Gosh! You're right! I'd never thought of that before!

H.

We've got pretty off topic here, Nerd42 has unsubbed, Adele shockingly seems to be developing glimmerings of common sense, azahar is morphing into Andrea Dworkin and I'm arguing with Blues again. The unsubscribe button is looking good... but for now.

">And because we don't have the money, we don't have the power. Simple.<
If it was that simple then we'd all still be living as serfs."

And we're not?

"But I guess it's not my problem if you've been browbeaten into submission by the system."

I prefer to think of it as working the system for my own self interest. What do YOU do?

"Interesting though that a man who can spend so much of his time campaigning for something as essentially meaningless as the Rules of H2G2 can't use the same intelligence and energy to affect real change in the real world."

What makes you think I don't? Just that I don't talk about it?

"And since when did the fact that something has been that way for centuries make it acceptable?"

I didn't say it was acceptable. I implied it was inevitable. Wars are unacceptable. They're also going to happen regardless of what we do. Iraq was the perfect demonstration - over a million people on the streets, and still we went to war for oil. I didn't waste my time marching because it's so obviously pointless.

"I notice you won't take the challenge on the rate of violent death, as well."

I don't deal drugs or frequent inner cities at night. That reduces the potential for me suffering a violent death. I don't honestly much care about anyone else, but they're welcome to follow my lead...

"Well f*ck me."

For THAT, I'd need something a little more robust than a condom. Like a few feet of concrete...

"I didn't know there were still parts of this Sceptred Isle where they hadn't heard of condoms."

I've heard of them, and use them, now and for many years. I'm certainly old enough not to trust women any more...

"That Branson man's a complete waste of time."

The third thing we agree on this year.

"If you're gonna shag it, bag it, to quote the old slogan. To do anything else is a stupidly irresponsible attitude in this day and age"

Absolutely right. It really would be extremely stupid to expect a woman to take responsibility for what happens in her body as a result of consenting sex, and irresponsible in the extreme for a man to actually take their word for it if they claim to have done so. You're so right - one should never consider a woman capable of acting like an adult.

"If you aren't gonna take the responsibility for the contraception ...then be prepared to take responsible for the resulting pregnancy."

WHY, please, is this phrase only ever directed at men? Why, given that, as women so often bleat, we're not the ones who get pregnant, are we charged with sole responsibility for preventing it?

"You'll get no sympathy from me if the CSA come knocking and your excuse is 'I thought she was on the pill'."

Oh, I know that, which is why now and for at least the last ten years I wouldn't trust any woman who claimed she would be prepared to take responsibility for contraception. I ALWAYS take that responsibility - the law itself, as you point out, does not recognise a woman's ability to, and places all the onus on the man. I accept that responsibility, but please don't expect me to do so with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. It stinks, but that's the world.

">I personally know a woman who has lied to two different men ...She went out with the express intention of getting pregnant.<
Boots sold out of condoms had they? Or no change for the machine in the pub. Gimme a break."

I don't know about you, but I've been in situations where I've been asked NOT to use a condom. To do so in such cases is to explicitly demonstrate that you do not trust the woman - that you believe her to be a liar and untrustworth. It usually spoils the mood, and usually at a rather crucial moment, and I've had to do it not once but twice. I have great sympathy for any man who actually trusts a woman in that situation and pays for that mistake for the rest of his life. I DON'T trust women in that situation, and it's cost me a couple of shags - no great loss, compared to the alternative.

">That attitude was good enough for my father, and it's good enough for me.<
Maybe something for *you* to think about there."

Gosh! You're right! I'd never thought of that before!

H.

We've got pretty off topic here, Nerd42 has unsubbed, Adele shockingly seems to be developing glimmerings of common sense, azahar is morphing into Andrea Dworkin and I'm arguing with Blues again. The unsubscribe button is looking good... but for now.

">And because we don't have the money, we don't have the power. Simple.<
If it was that simple then we'd all still be living as serfs."

And we're not?

"But I guess it's not my problem if you've been browbeaten into submission by the system."

I prefer to think of it as working the system for my own self interest. What do YOU do?

"Interesting though that a man who can spend so much of his time campaigning for something as essentially meaningless as the Rules of H2G2 can't use the same intelligence and energy to affect real change in the real world."

What makes you think I don't? Just that I don't talk about it?

"And since when did the fact that something has been that way for centuries make it acceptable?"

I didn't say it was acceptable. I implied it was inevitable. Wars are unacceptable. They're also going to happen regardless of what we do. Iraq was the perfect demonstration - over a million people on the streets, and still we went to war for oil. I didn't waste my time marching because it's so obviously pointless.

"I notice you won't take the challenge on the rate of violent death, as well."

I don't deal drugs or frequent inner cities at night. That reduces the potential for me suffering a violent death. I don't honestly much care about anyone else, but they're welcome to follow my lead...

"Well f*ck me."

For THAT, I'd need something a little more robust than a condom. Like a few feet of concrete...

"I didn't know there were still parts of this Sceptred Isle where they hadn't heard of condoms."

I've heard of them, and use them, now and for many years. I'm certainly old enough not to trust women any more...

"That Branson man's a complete waste of time."

The third thing we agree on this year.

"If you're gonna shag it, bag it, to quote the old slogan. To do anything else is a stupidly irresponsible attitude in this day and age"

Absolutely right. It really would be extremely stupid to expect a woman to take responsibility for what happens in her body as a result of consenting sex, and irresponsible in the extreme for a man to actually take their word for it if they claim to have done so. You're so right - one should never consider a woman capable of acting like an adult.

"If you aren't gonna take the responsibility for the contraception ...then be prepared to take responsible for the resulting pregnancy."

WHY, please, is this phrase only ever directed at men? Why, given that, as women so often bleat, we're not the ones who get pregnant, are we charged with sole responsibility for preventing it?

"You'll get no sympathy from me if the CSA come knocking and your excuse is 'I thought she was on the pill'."

Oh, I know that, which is why now and for at least the last ten years I wouldn't trust any woman who claimed she would be prepared to take responsibility for contraception. I ALWAYS take that responsibility - the law itself, as you point out, does not recognise a woman's ability to, and places all the onus on the man. I accept that responsibility, but please don't expect me to do so with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. It stinks, but that's the world.

">I personally know a woman who has lied to two different men ...She went out with the express intention of getting pregnant.<
Boots sold out of condoms had they? Or no change for the machine in the pub. Gimme a break."

I don't know about you, but I've been in situations where I've been asked NOT to use a condom. To do so in such cases is to explicitly demonstrate that you do not trust the woman - that you believe her to be a liar and untrustworth. It usually spoils the mood, and usually at a rather crucial moment, and I've had to do it not once but twice. I have great sympathy for any man who actually trusts a woman in that situation and pays for that mistake for the rest of his life. I DON'T trust women in that situation, and it's cost me a couple of shags - no great loss, compared to the alternative.

">That attitude was good enough for my father, and it's good enough for me.<
Maybe something for *you* to think about there."

Gosh! You're right! I'd never thought of that before!

H.

>I don't know about you, but I've been in situations where I've been asked NOT to use a condom.<
Walk away Rene, I think is the phrase. It is MY responsibility and my choice what I do with my wick. I'm going to exercise that responsibility no matter what the potential partner says, and if she expects me to abrogate that responsibility to myself then I don't need the sex that much.

>I accept that responsibility, but please don't expect me to do so with a smile on my face and a song in my heart.<
You know, I look on sex as a privilege, not a right. If wearing a condom is what it takes to make it happen, hey, picture me with the big goofy grin.

>WHY, please, is this phrase only ever directed at men? Why, given that, as women so often bleat, we're not the ones who get pregnant, are we charged with sole responsibility for preventing it?<
Because putting a f**k*ng condom on is easier for you than any alternative method is for women outside the pill, and doesn't affect your hormone levels. See my above comments about sex being a privilege, not a right.

Frankly, your demonstrable misogyny in this thread has made me lose a lot of respect for you, which is a shame. But there it is.

For me, it's *never* about whether I *trust* my potential partner about the matter of contraception. I've *never* slept with someone I didn't trust. But I still wear a condom.

I hope I never become as distrusting of the opposite sex as you are Hoo. It's make me very, very sad.

Lets assume that the figures from the toronto police rape investigation squad were accurately compiled, ok Hoo.

Now you know aswell as I do that the reason that rape investigations are carried out in a way that favours the alleged victim is because of the nature of the crime. Therefore you should know that the number of malicious accusations will look proportionaley higher than the number of actual rapes because not all actual rapes are reported. It would be much easier emotionally for a woman who has not been raped to hold it together and get down the station than for a woman or girl who has suffered an emotionally and physically traumatic ordeal.

Using figures when discussing rape is often meaningless because of the lack of reports not because of the abundance of malicious reports. The nature of the offence in my eyes requires the law to favour the victim. As you well know there is also a groundswell and the begining of political moves to offfer anonimty to the accused aswell in such cases. This is a legal problem and you well know that problems with the way the law works are not solved quickly.

What I dont understand is why you are coming across as if you have some axe to grind against real victims.


Custody and unreported domestic violence.

I know personally of a man who is a sometime drug dealer, with convictions for theft and possesion of canabis who still got custody of his child over his girlfriend. This was inspite of the fact that she had no record and had called the police to their house several times reporting violence from him. He was smart enough to play the system as well as psychollogically undermining his ex to the point where she felt unsure of her parenting skills, afraid of the family courts and other authorities.

In short he is a deceiful, hateful, bucket of scum, she was a mixed up and naieve kid at the time.

The law is weighted in favour of the mother because of just such cases.

I could tell you of mistakes in favour of the mother where a man has been treated unfairly, but in my experience they are fewer. More often the mistake is in favour of the father and that is why things are weighted the way they are. The courts are aware of the pressures often bought to bear by fathers that may not be apparent in reports or in front of the court.

Mistakes are made both ways but overall things are done for the best.

Sadly this does nothing for the children or "better" parent when things go wrong the other way.

When the final outcome is unfair interms of access or financial contribution this is often unfair and in these comparitvley few cases I do feel sorry for the (generally) fathers who it happens too. In many more cases errant fathers get away scott free and are not even bothered about access.

The courts that deal with such cases do aknowledge their clumsiness and are slowly but carefully refining their processes.

Right I have had a good sleep and some time to compose my thoughts, and here they are:-

I think it is totally erroneuos to suggest there is any kind of society wide systematic bias against men in favour of women. Hoo you said in an earlier post that you preferred to use statistics and examples. Well in that case I ask you question

"In Britain how many Lawyers, Judges, Politicians, Senior Police Officers, Newspaper Editors, Executives of large companies, Military Chiefs, University lecturers, School Headmasters ect are female?"

I think you will discover if you look into this (and myriad other important proffesions that I cannot be bothered to list) then you will find that in the important positions in our society virtually all the people who count are male. Our society is systematically geared up toward the benefit of men. Whilst there are laws which do in fact attempt to redress the balance these exist because traditionally men have always been dominant in the eyes of the law. This is not just true of laws toward women, but also for disabled people and people of ethnic minoritys.

I ask you another question Hoo, (I assume in asking this that like me you are a WASP)

"If you could change the group in society that you occupy (perhaps to become a women, or in a different ethnic grouping) would you do so in order to reap the benefits of the law being skewed in your favour?"

I rather guess that if you are as intelligent as you seem to be to me, then your answer will be an un-eqivocal "NO" because I a sure that you recognise that overall in life, if you are white and male in the UK then you get the best deal.

">I don't know about you, but I've been in situations where I've been asked NOT to use a condom.<
Walk away Rene, I think is the phrase."

That's exactly what I did. It wasn't easy, and I got a lot of abuse for it. But like I say, better that than the alternative.

"if she expects me to abrogate that responsibility to myself then I don't need the sex that much."

Absolutely right. You're the adult in the situation, remember - at least, that's how the law sees it.

"You know, I look on sex as a privilege, not a right."

For whom? You, or the person you're with? I think I can guess, and it's more of that pathetic apologising for being male again.

" hey, picture me with the big goofy grin."

Oh, believe me, I usually do.

">WHY, please, is this phrase only ever directed at men? Why, given that, as women so often bleat, we're not the ones who get pregnant, are we charged with sole responsibility for preventing it?<
Because putting a f**k*ng condom on is easier for you than any alternative method is for women outside the pill, and doesn't affect your hormone levels. See my above comments about sex being a privilege, not a right."

Sex is a privilege for men, is it? Whereas, you seem to be suggesting, women are entitled to consequence-free sex whenever they want it, with no responsibility at all. And you're right - that's how the world works from where I'm sitting.

"Frankly, your demonstrable misogyny in this thread has made me lose a lot of respect for you, which is a shame. But there it is."

And your pussy-whipped Uncle Tom feminism has had much the same effect on my opinion of you. Hey ho.

H.

Good God, H. You want a big knobly club to go with that attitude? No wait, can't have anything that might threaten your puffed up little masculine ego, now can we?

peiople still use phrases like 'pussy whipped' outside of cr*ppy American gangster movies?

Seriously. Get over your self. I'm guessing you're not John Shaft, James brown or indeed Superfly. You just sound miserable, scared and frightened of women.

>> In short he is a deceiful, hateful, bucket of scum, she was a mixed up and naieve kid at the time.
>> The law is weighted in favour of the mother because of just such cases.

I'm unsure about that, Blicky. I think that to the extent that the law is weighted, it's more to do with the old attitude of mothering being more important than fathering, and/or women being naturally better at parenting than men. I know that some fathers trying for custody in situations where there *isn't* particular animosity have said that it seems anything they do seems to be judged negatively. If they get emotional they fell they are judged as unstable, whereas mothers getting emotional are more likely to attract sympathy. If they keep calm they feel they are seen as uncaring whereas a woman is seen as being strong.

In a case where one person is manipulative and decietful and the other is naive, and where there's a strong element of one person's word against another there's a chance that the manipulative one will win. It is unfortunate that it seems often to be more a case of deciding who is the worse parent rather than who is the better one.

If the law *is* weighted towards maternal custody because it assumes that men are buckets of scum and women are naive sweeties, then I suggest that would be both sickeningly discriminatory and apparently also of debatable use, since in the case you quoted it didn't even work.

Hoo,
Regarding condoms, for casual sex they make good sense for reasons other than contraception, and pretty equally for both participants.
In long-term relationships it's up to the people involved to work out methods of contraception for themselves, and to work out what their thoughts are on what to do in the case when the contraception doesn't work.

"peiople still use phrases like 'pussy whipped' outside of cr*ppy American gangster movies?"

I speak as I find, and I think the vehemence of "pussy whipped" is preferable to the alternative, the rather staid British "hen-pecked". Hen-pecked could suggest stoical forbearance, whereas pussy-whipped suggests the more appropriate pathetic cowering submission.

"I'm guessing you're not John Shaft, James brown or indeed Superfly."

You guess correct. You've met me - I'm not even black.

And despite what KA suggests, I don't have some sort of macho image problem. I'm comfortable with what I am, and what I'm not. I'm not a particularly macho man - I can't stand rugby, I can just about recognise a car engine, beer gives me a headache, and I'd rather watch a Meg Ryan movie than a cup final. Do these things matter? Not to me, although I'm aware other people think they do.

"You just sound miserable, scared and frightened of women."

Miserable? Not at all.

Scared? Well, yes, a bit, but anyone who lives on planet earth in 2003 who isn't a bit scared isn't paying attention.

Frightened of women? Not at all. I have a great deal of respect for women, some of my best friends and most competent and reliable colleagues are women. There should be more of them in the workplace, more of them in government, and more of them in the police force and judiciary. I support any suggestion that women take on more responsibility for themselves and the world, and be given choices to support that - see most of my postings in this thread and elsewhere on h2g2.

I just have what I think is a realistic, non-politically-correct, open eyed view of where the real power lies. I'm no more frightened of women than I am of, say, snowfields in mountains. They're beautiful, cool, and you have a lot of fun with them - but if you let your concentration slip for one second and forget what it is you're dealing with, they can and will destroy your life without a second's thought. It doesn't do to be *frightened* of such things - fear is counterproductive and in any case if you're afraid you'll miss the potential fun. One should regard them with caution and respect, and never forget for a second that while they are human too, the law (statute and common) does NOT apply to them the way it does to you.

H.

Hoo,

<>

No, I did not state that. I said I would believe any woman or child, referring to (but sorry, probably not being clear enough about this) any woman or child I know, since strangers on the street are not about to come up to me and tell me such a thing. So I was talking about knowing the people involved.

For example, my youngest brother, when he was nine, told me that one of our brothers (18 years older than him) was beating him. I believed him without a doubt.

My ex-sister-in-law told me another of my brothers beat her and she suspected him of having sexually abused their three young daughters. Since this brother had also abused myself and my sister I also believed her.

I do know that false accusations are sometimes made and if my profession was working with abused women and children, or if I were on jury duty, then I would listen to the evidence open-mindedly and as unemotionally as possible.

az

Hoo,

<>

That you feel you need to be so on guard with women lest they willfully attempt to destroy your life with a second's thought is very sad indeed. Especially as this is such an exaggerated and unfair - and untrue - comment to make.

I have had several men try to destroy my life. When I was a child and could not defend myself. And for awhile they almost succeeded. But this did not make me mistrust *all* men forever afterwards.

az

Hoo, just too, too funny for words.

'They say this cat Hoo is a bad mother
SHUT YOUR MOUTH!
I'm talkin' 'bout Hoo.
THEN WE CAN DIG IT!

He's a complicated man
But no one understands him but Meg Ryan
That's Who!'

Also, false accusations are made by both men and women regarding many different crimes. And sometimes people go to jail for a crime they did not commit, be it murder or theft or whatever.

Of course this is wrong, but the justice system is far from perfect.

az

Hoo I am impressed... a rather neat sidestep of the questions I asked. Ever considered a career in politics?

"Women are entitled to consequence-free sex...with no responsibility at all..."

becoming pregnant isn´t what I´d call consequence-free

Just bookmarking really, but that comment struck me as rather odd.