h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

That is, if you consider vegetarianism to be 'good'. As a lot of people do.

Ignoring all the ethical/sociological/cultural questions and sticking with info, I've been vegetarian for 13 years and vegan for 3. Here's my observations and what help I can give:

Re: Cravings: They say it takes 30 days to break a habit. Go 30 days without the foods you're trying to give up, and you're halfway there. The other half is about attitude. People are constantly asking me if I don't feel deprived, and don't I miss [insert-foodstuff-here]. At first, I did feel a little deprived, and then I realised that I was releasing myself from culturally-imposed ideas of food and allowing myself to explore my own (my very OWN!) ideas of what I wanted to eat. It was truly liberating. I've found that looking at my diet as a chance to expand my horizons rather than limit them has been the best decision I could have made - it was also instrumental in getting me out of and over a compulsive eating disorder.

Re: Protein: People freak about protein. Our culture (US/UK) is obsessed with it, and people generally eat too much of it. I have found that it is most important to listen to your body, and to try out which foods have what effect on you. I did this by taking advantage of a few days off from work to do a "detox and explore": I ate only steamed veggies and fruit the first day, added steamed brown rice the next, and then began adding different foods to the mix. I immediately discovered that the more refined the food, the more lethargic (and depressed) I felt. Over a period of a month or so, I worked out what foods did what for me, and then settled into a routine of listening to what my body actually wanted me to eat, as opposed to what I was habituated to eat. Check out the Vegetarian Society and the Vegan Society websites for indepth information on nutritional needs.

Re: Animal product listings: I cannot recommend 'Animal Ingredient A-Z' by the EG Smith Collective highly enough. This covers animal ingredients in food, beverages, and a variety of other consumables (cosmetics, bodycare items, etc.). It is a slim volume, very portable, and lists animal ingredients under all their various aliases. It's absolutely indispensible.

Re: Resources: I adore 'The Vegan Cookbook' by Baskerville and Wakeman - it is real commonsense cooking; 'Vegan Vittles' by Stepniak (the notes are a little cutesy if well-meaning, but the recipes are outstanding); 'Great Vegetarian Cooking Under Pressure' by Lorna Sass is dedicated to pressure-cooking, and is unbelievably fabulous - you can make quite complex meals in a very short time, and every recipe has worked beautifully; 'How It All Vegan' by Kramer and Barnard is so cool: two Canadian punks have created an excellent cookbook with retro-design, 45 things to do with vinegar, and how to make your own cosmetics; Rasmussen's 'Veggie Works Cookbook' has shown me how to make convincing "mock meats" - so convincing that I can't bear to eat some of them; and 'The Voluptuous Vegan' by Myra Kornfeld is all about posh dining, and provides loads of info about kitting out your kitchen. Add to these the plethora of vegetarian Thai, Chinese, Indian, Indonesian, Mediterranean, Russian (apparently, the Russian Orthodox Church requires periods of "fasting" in which the diet becomes entirely vegan - it's a good idea in terms of general health anyway) and other ethnic cuisines, and you're set. Almost every veg*n cookbook I have ever seen comes complete with nutritional information, presumably in case it's picked up by someone unfamiliar with that dietary choice.

The Vegetarian Society and Vegan Society websites are vast and cool; The Vegetarian Resource Group website is pretty packed; the Low Fat Vegetarian Recipes Archive is incredible; and all you need to is type "vegetarian" or "vegan" into a search engine to find a bazillion websites, personal or organisational.

Good luck!

Alji was merely stating a fact. That was not a comparison. For you to take it as such shows a little oversensitivity... I can understand that in the context of being hounded by intolerant meat eaters, but there are none of those in this thread, least of all Alji. (Anyway Hitler was not a vegetarian out of ethics or choice. A lot of people believe he was, i.e. more considerate to animals than humans, to illustrate their disapproval of extreme animal rights tactics. Others believe raw meat-eating would be more in keeping with his character.)
There was no cheap jibe on that count, and I really don't know how you got the idea he was suggesting that vegetables suffer as much as animals. That would be daft and Alji is demonstrably *not* daft.
There were no usual comments; what I was expecting is what I usually hear, i.e. we are 'meant' to eat meat etc. etc. pseudo-scientific misinterpretation. Alji cleared that one up fairly early, thankfully, and there have been no meat-eaters oppressing or denying the right of vegetarians to eat how they like.
Everyone *is* leaving you alone.

There's nothing in vegetables that would turn you into a genocidal psychopath, so no I am not surprised that it hasn't happened to you. Could I request a little less silliness?

Andy- farm animals would die out, aye, and we'd be left with none. If your reply was to Alji, it makes no sense since that wasn't his argument. Is it a desirable thing that we lose several more species?

According to Hitler's cook, Dione Lucas, in her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she states that Hitler was not a vegetarian, but went on periodic detox diets to deal with his chronic stomach problems. She goes into great detail about his preference for stuffed squab, blood sausages, etc. Goebbels, though, wanted to portray Hitler as an ascetic, devoted only to the good of the Great Aryan Nation (TM), and eschewing all luxuries and comforts in his pursuit of this (which buys into the "vegetarians are deprived" idea).

And people tend to be sensitive to the comment about Hitler being a veggie because it's one of the most common taunts used by aggressive omnivores to put down a vegetarian lifestyle. I couldn't care less, but I can perfectly see why people are sick and tired of it.

Mind you, many of the Nazi elite were reputed to be good fathers/husbands/neighbours, etc. Even the worst of people have their good side, and the best of people have their bad side (i.e. Ghandi's protest against the dalits gaining legal and social parity with other castes).

I've only heard it in response to claims that meat makes you aggressive; never used to make a serious point.

I'm afraid the only context in which I've heard it over the past 13 years is to put down my dietary choice. This is annoying, as I am extra-careful not to do the same to others, it being plain rude, IMHO

Hi Alji, I was resonding to your quote: "So if everyone becomes vegetarian what do you think will happen to all the farm animals?"

Sorry if I came across as a bit aggressive, I was just p***ed about being compared to Hitler (again!) . Perhaps I was being oversensitive.

In a more refined manner: if everyone stopped eating meat, there would be no need for such intensive farming. Animals have been selectively bred, not in any 'survival of the fittest' manner, but in order to provide the most cost effective (not best) meat. Stop breeding them in this way, and your question is answered. I have to say, if worldwide vegetarianism led to the extinction of the common broiler chicken I wouldn't shed a tear.

However, I'm a realist and know that, until there have been another 20 or so food scares on eggs, beef, hormones, cloning etc, I'll probably be in a minority. C'est la vi.

Mandragora,

>Alji was merely stating a fact.<

Oh come on. So if you were a Taurus and I just happened to mention 'oh, Hitler was a Taurus', what would your inference be? It's an equally stupid and provocative comment to make, and it doesn't matter who says it.

Was I being oversensitive? Maybe you missed the which might just have suggested I wasn't being too serious, at least until you grabbed the wrong end of the stick with both hands.

And wouldn't it be wise to be a little less patronising, especially when you're actually wrong about something

I'm sorry I toutched such a raw nerve but I must point out that most of the veggies I know have a 'Holier than thou' attitude.

Everyone taking up vegiterianism should be warned of the dangers involved. Nut allergies kill over 20 healthy young people in the UK every year, and the number of cases is rising. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1113656.stm

Over 400 different allergens can be tested for. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/allergy/tests_blood.shtml

Iron deficiency. See
http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/healthiereating/foodrelatedconditions/irondeficiency/


See what other ex-veggies say @ http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml



Alji the Magus

Sure, some veggos have a holier than thou attitude, but also so do some non-smokers, so do some religious folk, so do some people who donate to charity, so do some people *just because they can*. People who have this attitude are trying to find some way of broadcasting to the world how special they are, so whether it's for being a veggo or for personally finding a cure for cancer, there's not much anyone can do about it. It's the attitude, not the cause, which is the problem.

Nut allergies? Don't meat eaters suffer from nut allergies. Really, I find the level of argument from the meat eaters very poor. Come on, surely you can do better than that? What about veal as a bi-product of the milk industry?

Hear-hear!

I think the response you get also depends on the time and way the information is brought to light, eg:

omnvr: Come to the dinner party I'm having tomorrow night.
vgg: I'm veggie, will that be ok?
omnvr: Sure.

vs

omnvr: Come over for dinner tomorrow night.
vgg: Ok.

/tomorrow night/
vgg: Euurgh! I can't eat this, I am vegetarian!
omnvr: Oh. The salad is probably ok.

I have personal experience of that one - invited a friend's new partner to come as an extra guest for a dinner party and they accepted without mentioning the fact then sat and complained all night because they could only eat the bread and salad.

or
omnvr: Hi, I'm Kelli
vgg: Hi, I am a vegetarian.

I am being a bit fascetious with that one, but what I mean is that if it comes up in a food/health-related context it is fine but when dropped in randomly it can seem a bit campainging and aggressive, or attention seeking.

To be honest, there are some great veggie recipes out there, and advice to the original questioner is that if you want to be a veggie then go for it! Don't apologise for it, and have fun with your food - try new flavours and experiment.

Good luck!

What if you cut bits of meat out of an animal under anasthetic, and then allow it to live afterwards, nursing it back to health and looking after it ... is that meat acceptable for vegetarians to eat?

(Like, those with the ethical objection. Not those who just don't like the taste.)

WebWitch - thanks very much for the interesting info. i'll certainly check some of that stuff out.

This thread seems to have deteriorated into a bit of a slanging match which wasn't really intended.

On one theme of the thread I would have to agree that I hate it when people take a holier than thou attitude with any subject, Vegetarianism included. Just let people get on with what they want to do, man....

Comparing someone to Hitler because they are a veggie is just plain ridiculous.

I seriously doubt it

I would think that it depends on the ethical reasons - it could be they don't eat meat cos they see all animals as equal to humans, it could be that they don't like the way in which the land is treated in order to raise the animals, they may not like the way the workers in the meat industry are treated, they may not like the idea of selective breeding, they may think it foul to eat anything that was once a sentient creature...there're quite a few different ethical issues.



Just for the record, I'm not a vegetarian, although I rarely eat meat (mainly because I don't like the taste of it)

A more complex ethical argument will be had when, for instance, a chicken breast or leg of lamb can be cloned unattached to a central nervous system. Put aside the yuck factor, and assuming it's regarded as safe, how do veggies respond to that?

As I said before, I think it would depend on their particular ethical issues - odds are that if they have problems with eating meat because of animal rights issues, then they're not going to want to eat cloned meat

Glad the info helps

Regarding being a good vegetarian guest, I always tell first and offer to bring food. I also always offer to be the host. Either way, this tends to cause panic in omnivores not familiar with veg*nism.

I have often found myself eating out or at an informal gathering having people staring at my food, making comments about what I'm eating, and trying to foist their meat/dairy products on me. I'm used to people smacking their lips and saying "Bet you miss this, don't you?" as they wave their pork cutlet at me, or aggressively demanding that I justify my dietary choice. I'm also used to being the butt of "jokes" singling me and my husband out for ridicule based on our diet. Our response is to be as polite as possible and change the subject quickly to avoid an argument.

Fortunately, our close friends are very cool, and the initial weirdness they felt about our change of diet (somehow, vegetarian was reasonable, but veganism was mindbending), they not only became accommodating, but eager to try out their vegan recipes on us.

Weirdly, in 13 years of vegetarianism, I've never actually seen holier-than-thou vegetarianism at work; I have, though, endured a great deal of abuse from omnivores, most of whom insist that veg*ns are aggressive and militant as they begin to lay into me. Hooray for very cool friends and family.

It's a funny old game

Oh, and regarding "dangers": ANYONE is at risk of poor health if they fail to eat a balanced and varied diet. New vegetarians who suffer from iron deficiencies do so because they carry their old bad eating habits into their new diet. ANYONE is at risk from nut allergies, not only vegetarians.

It may be true that some folks just aren't physically suited to a vegetarian diet; most complaints about vegetarian diet "deficiencies" are down to a lack of education (and sometimes plain common sense) about nutrition, and a lack of willingness to eat properly. Remember, because of intensive farming, our intake of meat and dairy foods is vastly higher than our parents or grandparents' generations - we eat more animal products than humans have ever eaten before. The risks of an omniverous diet heavy in animal products and low in plant matter - i.e. the typical British and American diet - are stroke, heart disease, type-2 diabetes, erectile dysfunction, et al. Regardless of whether you're a vegetarian or omnivore, whether your dietary choices are based on principle or habit, you need to periodically review your diet to make sure you're on track and eat a balanced diet high in plant matter.

I shall now get off my soapbox and stop behaving like your Mum...

Ta.

I don't mind cooking and extra veggie dish if I know I have a veggie coming - sometimes the omnivores choose to have it instead if it smells good enough. I've never had a vegan to dinner so haven't yet attmepted a vegan dish, I'm sure there'll be a first time.

It is the awful embarrassment of being a host with a guest you haven't provided anything for that I can't stand.

Do you get the same problem in reverse? Do you get problems with people expecting meat and complaining when they don't get it?

Andy, of course meat eaters suffer from nut allergies, but meat eaters don't rely on nuts as their source of protein.

Alji the Magus