h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ste - Having written Who's Who 2020 I thought that '360' might appreciate a bit of traffic. This was my first ever conversation on h2g2 it didn't do so bad as an introduction. A just for you.

P,J,L - The actual act of introducing a 'new' ID Card may well unearth a few criminals.

Glad to see you've stuck with us AB

Yup P.Q.
Just thought I'd renew old acquaintances.
Can't remember whether you were friend or foe

I can't either...I think I was one of the people who dissappeared at the first sign of trouble...a fair weather friend

You must have continued to lurk the conversation if you knew that trouble ensued
Go have a go at A951248. '360' has a very nice 'skin'

It seems malaysia is introducing a kind of ID card. I think they called it Mykad. They also want to use it for internet transaction, claiming it's a foolproof method. Seems just as faulty as the previous ones to me.

Just to be clear at the outset, I haven't read the backlog ....

An ID card per se wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but it would not be practical to use it as a credit card/drivers licence/passport etc. It would need to be an entirely separate article. A one size fits all solution wouldn't work particularly as a cradle to grave ID card, after all you would be tied into a technology that would need to last for a century unless of course you want to waste public money by upgrading every couple of years.

The next question is where do you store the data that relates to the holder of the ID card, on the card or in a database? There would of course still be some form of national index to the database, but either way the system would be open to either ID theft, or potential misuse.

Then there are the legal niceties of whether it would be a crime, not to have your ID card with you and how the ID card scheme fits in with current legislation on data protection.

Lets face it AB, while it is feasible to have a national ID card and I'm sure that you can argue quite reasonably in favour of an ID card scheme, there is absolutely no way that the practical and legal issues associated with such a scheme have even begun to be addressed and no-one can really say that it will have any use.

I did read your list in Post 1 and it all sounds really good, unrealistic, but really good.

For example, exactly how would linking an ID card to your driving licence in anyway make it cheaper to administer the DVLC so that you can justify providing a rebate on the road fund licence?

Why exactly would a mortgage lender want to provide you with a discount on their rates just because you have an ID card? It doesn't make you a better payer or less of a risk.

And with a national scheme, everyone will have an ID card, so how can you show a preference to someone with an ID card?

Hi Madent - You should read post 318 to understand that I am still using the subject of ID cards as way of trying to understand what h2g2 is all about. This post was my maiden conversation piece on h2g2. I am using the subject again to unravel '360'. However the subject is a good one so I'll reply to the points you make.



No different from today - All theses things need updating and renewing - swipe cards wear out - passports come and go, we've gone from a British version to a Euro one



On a data base under one ref. ( I doubt if any system can be totally secure.) The whole idea is that your ID is established/proved beyond doubt by whatever means.



You would carry the card for your convenience, because as it evolved it could carry your endorsement to drive, travel abroad, benefits, health record etc. It would become to your advantage to carry it. The first need is an the ID Card to replace the Birth Certificate



I just do not understand that claim - What is this thing you have with practical and legal issues. Everything that needs to be done is already done in an inefficient manner and under umpteen references. The exercise would be to establish and record your unique identity and tie these things back to that identity and a single reference point. The end result would be that it be the key to information stored on you and you would have access to that information under the data protection act. At the moment you haven't a clue where or what information is recorded against you name.


That post was my first on h2g2 and was something of an off the top send up, with a modicum of belief.



The whole area of bureaucracy as evolved under Parkinson's Law. The main justification for any change is increased efficiency. Unfortunately the biggest factor in improving efficiency is reduction in staff. This also happens to be a double edged influence to any form of restructuring because the wage bill is a major part of the operating cost of any enterprise. There must be miles of slack in any government controlled department.
Because the whole exercise would initiate change and reorganisation, that slack would be identified and taken up as each aspect of government control that needed a form of identity was looked into brought under the common heading. Result increased efficiency and ensuing cost savings.



Of course recording any details does not change you. However, simply because of the fact that you had been issued a card in the first place would be proof of your identity and the fact that you had been scrutinised and had nothing to hide. In the end isn't that what ID cards is all about.



It is what would be involved in the introduction of ID Cards where the benefits would be derived not in the ultimate outcome. By the time everyone had an ID Card and providing that the introduction had been diligently carried out, all the benefits would have accrued and it would be necessary to start again

Hmmm, good quality false passports/driving licenses/birth certificates are easy to get hold of.

A journalist recently managed to get a driving license in the name of THE David Blunkett, even though he is registered blind, and the same journalist even played with Frederick Forsyth's identity and was issued credit cards etc.

There are people out there who have had their identities stolen and have huge tax bills/debts/etc from people living as them.

With an ID card system it would have to be impossible to do these things. I can think of no way in which this could be done...

Also, many European countries have ID card systems, which do not cut down crime etc, and there are forging gangs present there too...

Bob
I am lurking around other DNAhub sites at the moment. I used this thread as a learning exercise with h2g2. It provoked action so I used the subject again in 'Book of the Future' to see what reaction it got there. I'd be glad if you would have a read and post over on BotF A958719

I went there too

I am afraid that they could be forged.It is also a great expense for the same problems in the end. The technology is not secure yet. I do not know if it can be.

It could be started gradually with births and eldery benefits. I worry that if people *think* it is secure, they may not be questioning the criminals as frequently .

People seem willing to give up privacy for convienence. The credit card became something you almost HAD to have in the US to rent anything from a car to a movie. U are looked upon as a second class citizen without one! We finally *had* to do it in order to have a credit history and travel. It is also *insurance* for Dr. bills/hospitals here, and many other businesses. The ID card would be the same way eventually I bet-it,it will be very inconvienent to NOT have one.

*smart cards* are wanted by advertisers
When U walk past a store U have shopped at or bought a competitors product, there will be an instant message to U, perhaps an added discount. They will nab U while in the neighborhood. If U drive the same path every day U will get consumer info on your path! It would be the completion of your every move being data. Even clothing will have sensors. All your sensors, ID ,car, medical,phone,house,products, will be communicating with one another.

There is a family (in Florida i think) that had the chips implanted under their skin. It's just like the pets & done here for ID .I do not know how many people have actually done this.

Several car manufactures offer tracking // stolen vehicles. Uh huh ,an abusive partner recently attached one to his ex-wifes car- she was tracked and murdered.

I thought computer chips could be toxic to a body.
Um ..there is nothing to loose? YES.

I think that it really depends on what info the ID card carries and how it holds that info. In the UK, if you drive, you are supposed to carry your driving licence, giving your date of birth and address. I would have no problem with carrying an ID card that carried that sort of information and a photo for example.

All documents can be forged, or stolen and altered though, which raises concern about the type and amount of info that the authorities may want to include. I have serious reservations as information could be misused by another party. (Anxiety with regard to people being able to track your movements/spending habits etc are not an issue to me as all that info is available via credit card usage, mobile phone calls etc).

Having said that, if carrying an ID card means we are less likely to have to live with a fear of terrorism, then bring 'em in. I'm rather less concerned with civil liberties than I am being blown to kingdom come by some git with a bomb.

"if carrying an ID card means we are less likely to have to live with a fear of terrorism" = carry a card.

I would agree IF I believed that to be true.
I do not. They all had ID!

I am for retinal scans as far as all I've read.

The facial heat scan is bogus too. Anyone with central nervous system problems will lite it up. They are said to detect liarsI bet the people (terrorist) used to lying will pass *cooler* and honest!

Check my retina Please!
However it is also diseased--will that change on every scan as it deteriates? Will I be a suspect due to the disease process and not having matching scans?

Hi AncientBrit

I've just read through you reply and would like to pick up on a couple of points.

Firstly you say that your personal information would be stored on a national database which you admit won't be secure, then you say "You would carry the card for your convenience, because as it evolved it could carry your endorsement to drive, travel abroad, benefits, health record etc." Which of course means that it can be modified by the holder in a criminal way of course.

Then in regard to my view that we are not yet practically nor legally equipped to deal with an ID card you said "I just do not understand that claim - What is this thing you have with practical and legal issues. Everything that needs to be done is already done in an inefficient manner and under umpteen references."

Practical issues. First you need a secure technology to use a card. Smart cards its true, are starting to offer that technology, but they are rather immature to replace systems that have operated for perhaps centuries. Second, you need to equip everyone with the technology to access the information on the card. Not an impossible task I agree but its still a wide ranging issue and you need to be sure that there is no betamax/vhs battle taking place (are you sure?).

Legal issues. Have you heard of the Data Protection Act? A centralised database system containing personal details, health details, driving details, criminal record, DNA, fingerprints. Yes it sounds great, but the law won't allow you to construct that kind of system. One of the reasons for these systems being done under umpteen references is to ensure that for example, when you are arrested for a speeding conviction, the friendly policeman involved then doesn't get to know everything about you from the size of your shoes to the size of your overdraft.

As to the example of the DVLC, I fear I didn't explain properly. How can having an ID card make it cheaper to buy a tax disc? One is for you as an individual, the other is for the car. Both it is true are issued by the DVLC, but it is extremely faulty logic you are using.

And this really does show up your motives - "Of course recording any details does not change you. However, simply because of the fact that you had been issued a card in the first place would be proof of your identity and the fact that you had been scrutinised and had nothing to hide. In the end isn't that what ID cards is all about."

I don't believe I have anything to hide, but I don't want my personal details collecting together into one place in a manner that means I no longer have any control over them. Because I do have a degree of control (as do you).

Your last comments reveal an awful lot about your motives. I imagine you believe yourself to be a pillar of the community, with nothing to hide. You also believe that the only people who don't want an ID card are the crooks in this world, because they have too much to hide. Well I'm sorry to disillusion you, but aside from yourself, the group that most want ID cards in this country are the criminals.

Madent,
Earlier you said "Just to be clear at the outset, I haven't read the backlog ...."
but if you are interested you are going to have to.

I have tried to express my view simply at A958719

"In the UK, if you drive, you are supposed to carry your driving licence, giving your date of birth and address."

Is this new? I thought you just had to have a licence, and be able to produce it at a police station within a specified time - I didn't think there was any rules saying that you actually have to have it on you.

I have never carried mine, and when I got done for not having a seat belt on I got an on-the-spot fine and a 'producer' so I had to take all my documentation (MOT cert, registration, insurance and licence) to the police station within 7 days. They didn't say that I had to carry any of that stuff, but this was a couple of years ago so things might have changed since.

Things can't have changed - otherwise they would have to be a lot quicker at replacing my licence when I sent it in with my new address on it

Clearly, to guard against loss, any important information cannot be stored only on a smartcard, so there would have to be one or more secure databases with copies of information from the card.
Wherever information is stored, there are likely to be circumstances under which officialdom will authorise access to such information. I'd suspect that in extremis, even with the current state of the law, access is allowed to pretty much anything, and it is only the practical dificulties of correlating information that is an obstacle in extreme cases.

What many people are concerned about is that once access becomes easy from a practical point of view (especially if there are no checks or balances resulting from people being physically involved in granting such access as might be the case at the moment) there may be a tendency towards access being broadened over time to the point where various officials can see things that are none of their business.

If people were actually confident that a bent copper selling just one piece of information to a private investigator or journalist was highly likely to be caught and banged up for a few years, I suspect the level of unease would be lower.

There's no way I'm going to carry around an ID card all the time if they bring them in. It's going to stay at home or in a locker somewhere unless I need it for a specific purpose, like my national insurance card, savings accounts cards, local library ID card and so on.

Okay so you don't want to answer, that's fine. I read the link and it just confirmed further that you haven't actually got the faintest idea about the practical, technical and legal issues that you casually override with your firmly held view that this must be both possible and desireable with no thought of the consequnces.

The most condemning legal issue is the fallability of any of the chosen techniques for identification purposes.

An expert might be able to present a convincing argument in court that a DNA "fingerprint" is statistically that of a suspect. This does not mean that it is, it is their opinion. However any conviction that rests solely on the testimony of an expert witness is "unsafe". See recent press for details.

Are you happy that you might be up on a charge in court solely on the basis of a good DNA match, regardless of any alibi, and face conviction on the testimony of one person?

Do you actually know how a relational database works?

I'm going before I type something regrettable.