h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I don't need an ID card - I know who I am.

Very nicely put, Donald

The bit that bugs me particularly about proposed the introduction of the ID card is that they are going to wrap it up with passport applications from 2008-ish. If you apply for a passport after that date, you'll have have an ID card as part of the process. Therefore it will be impossible to be an ID-refusnik if one wants to leave the country to go on holiday for example.

Me, well I think that my passport might suffer a little accident one day in the early spring of 2008 whilst I'm burning some old papers that I've cleared out. With a bit of luck and careful eye on the ID card / passport introduction timetable, I should be able to avoid having an ID card until 2017 or 18

... and then I found this --> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/19/browne_biometric_passports/

I love the last two paragraphs

Then what happens if you try to dodge the UK ID card by skipping to another country, and that country decides that all residents need a Government issued ID card as well. Will you just move again to a country that you won't need to have an ID card?

I still don't get why people are so damn paranoid about this.

Let me ask you this, then.
If you have a driving licence, do you carry that with you when you're out driving or do you leave that at home?

>> I still don't get why people are so damn paranoid about this. <<

You will, just give it time and you will. It's a hugely expensive total waste of time that will never achieve the objectives claimed for it. The chances are that by the time Big Brother arrives I will be past caring.

Regards driving liscence - I leave it at home along with the Insurance Certificate and MOT Certificate. Its nearly ten years since I last had to produce them.

Donald

Want an ID Card? Get one now while thay are cheap!

http://www.phatism.com/fake-id-uk/

The Chaos is looming!

I had to hunt for ages to find my licence when I got zapped by a speed camera in 2003. I think the last time I saw it before that was some time in the mid nineties.

I object to being required to carry an ID card at all times, is that still the plan or have they relaxed a bit? There are plenty of times when I don't want to carry my handbag around with me, and I don't have pockets in many of my clothes. I don't believe this makes me a criminal

The last I heard that if you are asked to produce your ID Card by a Police Officer you have fourteen days in which you can produce it.

Imagine the mayhem you can cause in fourteen days before anyone relises you are not who you say you are.

Donald

Problems with the ID Card system.
Humans design it.
Humans program it
Humans administer it
Humans collect the data
Humans create the data.

And the worst thing is, once all that data is in the computer, people think it must be right. For some reason there are many out there that when the computer displays the data believe that it must be true.
One hopes there will be a quick and efficient process to handle disputes about this. But there wont be. Because they will cause lots of work.

Donald, I don't know if you've read my previous posts on this topic, but the reason I'm not paranoid about the implementation of ID cards is that I'm originally from Sweden, and we've had ID cards in Sweden for ages and ages. We're also required to have our drivers licences with us when we're driving in case something happens.


Hmmm.. Once again I have been drawn into this discussio where I feel that no matter what I say, people will still be mistrusting the government to a degree where they overthink the dangers and their own fears of the implementation of the ID card scheme.

I will bow out, because I feel that I can't contribute any new views to the discussions, but can only refer to my previous posts.

Some form of identification is necessary to give your life credibility.
You are born you get a certificate. You die the certificate is redeemed.
You get your birth certificate, a basic ID, how many other ID's do you require ? Modern life demands that you have some form of ID. You are expected to prove who you are for all manner of services Many requirements have nothing to do with Government but the Government is expected to play a major part in fascilitating the proof of identity and ensuring that that identity is safeguarded.
How do they do it ?
Births, marriages and deaths have been recorded by the Government from 1837 onwards.
Hatching, matching and despatching are facts of life. Hatching and despatching begin and end the system, for some reason matching became important but just look here to see other records that have spawned from that simple begining. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
It is time to bring the establishment of your identity (The Birth Certificate) and the recording of information against your identity into the 21st century.

>> Some form of identification is necessary to give your life credibility. <<

I know who I am. My family know who I am. My friends know who I am. I have a birth certificate. I have a National Insurance number. That is all anyone has a right to know or needs to know about me unless I chose to tell them otherwise. The choice is mine, not some faceless bureaucrat.

The last time the were ID card in Britain was during WWII. There was a good reason for having them then. Everyone had one, including children between the ages of 5 and 16. I still have mine. They were eventually abolished in 1952. The Government tried to hang on to them against much protest from the population.

Until a motorist was stopped by a Police Officer. The Police Officer asked for the drivers driving licence and ID card. The driver produced his driving licence but refused to produce his ID Card on a matter of principle. He was charged and appeared for the local magistrate. The magistrate agreed with the driver that ID cards in peacetime where an unnecessary intrusion into the private of the individuals and acquitted him. Shortly after that, ID cards were abolished.

In 1974 when IRA terrorists were planting bombs, notably in Birmingham, the Government toyed with the idea of introducing ID Cards. They abandoned the idea as being unworkable and of little benefit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4139049.stm

So if magistrates in 1952 disagreed with the idea and the government in 1974 didn't like the idea, what has changed in 2005 that makes it more acceptable.

Donald

Donald - Why did you highlight this statement >> Some form of identification is necessary to give your life credibility. << and then say nothing about it ?
No matter look at what you did say:-
Para 1 - The whole point is that 'faceless bureaucrats' and numerous other organisations are doing it now. You didn't read my post. In any event it isn't the people you refer to who need you to identify yourself. Why did you refer to your birth certificate ?
Para 2 - Why was it necessary during the war ?
You knew who you were. Your family knew who you were. You friends knew who you were and you had a birth certificate.
I had a WW2 ID card and No. as well - TMOU 108/4. Just another number. Again the whole point of my post. How many ID's do you need ?
Par 3 - A nice little story
Later paragraphs. - Read post 379. and the previous post again carefully.
Do I need to tell you that there has been significant changes since WW2, 1952 and 1974. Particularly in the preparation, recording and storage of information. What good is a data protection act if you don't have knowledge of and access to the data ?
Ancient Brit

I was going to say something about your remark and forgot. You don't need to be able to identify yourself to the world at large to give your life credibility. Thats for performers and similar people.

I could not quite work out whether you were advocating ID cards or were railing against them.

Why was it necessary during the war ?

Because it was far more likely that there would be spies, enemy agents and other miscellaneous undesirables falling out of the sky.

I mentioned my birth certificate because you did. Its all the ID I need.

>> Do I need to tell you that there has been significant changes since WW2, 1952 and 1974. Particularly in the preparation, recording and storage of information. What good is a data protection act if you don't have knowledge of and access to the data ? <<

So there has, but what has that got to do with ID Cards. If anything it strengthens the case against ID cards. The Data Protection Act is about the protection of personal data, nothing at all to do with identity.

Since the inception of the Freedom of Information Act I have access to any data I want now - without an ID card.

In relation to post 379, read the last paragraph to post 380. ID Cards will be useless for the purposes in which they are being touted. Which only leaves me to believe that there is some hidden agenda.

>> Your own unique card with your own unique ID number what could be more innocent than that. <<

I already have one as does every citizen of the UK over the age of eighteen. Its called a National Insurance Number. Everyone else should have a passport. No need for an ID card and another number.

Read this and you will see why ID Cards are a bad idea.

http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/polin/polin098.htm

Donald

... we faceless bureaucrats (UK) also need to know where you live, otherwise you will not be able to vote. And you are currently required by law to complete and return the annual electoral registration form sent to your household.

If you are excluded from the democratic process, you can't change it. You may choose to exclude yourself by not voting, but you do not *in law* have a choice about registering to vote.

Few councils actually prosecute for non-return of forms nowadays, but your choice about disclosing this information is between compliance and non-compliance with the law. So - your birth certificate (ie evidence of your date and place of birth), your NINO (for earnings and tax information) ... and your address; this is the information about your identity which government, in its various guises, needs.

I don't personally have a problem with these 3 bits of information being combined on one bit of plastic, but equally I can't see a reason for combining them so that I can prove who I am either. Particularly if the combining is going to be carried out by a bunch of incompetent faceless bureaucrats (as opposed to the caring sort, like me).

Mol

Well the whole ID card business is not as simpple "as those who have something to hide are the only ones who dont want it"

I would welcome a card the held my driving, national insurance, organ donor and other basic details. Held by a government I dont trust much is something Ive always had to deal with anyway.

Thing is that is not how the plans for the proposed ID cards look.

There will be extra fingerprint and biometric information held. NOw at the moment this information can only be taken under various strict legal guidlines and is held soley by the government or destroyed in some cases. The plan is that a private company will have by law access to very personal information whether you want it to or not.

I know that the government is incompotent and untrustworthy but adding a profit making company into the mix ups the levels of dishonesty and incompetentce a great deal...

We have ID cards of several kinds in the UK I wear them for work and carry one for driving (well falling off motorbikes, to describe it more accurately)

This present plan is the product of a control freak goverment who wants the ability to track and pinpoint its own citizens, not to stop them breaking the law but so that we have less chance of stopping it when it breaks the law. It has already restricted lawful demostrations by coralling people who were protesting illegal and morally dubious wars and arms sales. Whats next.....?

one love

I think the penny may be dropping.
In this day and age we do only require one ID no./card. Nothing more innocuous than a birth certificate. In fact that should have been all we ever needed. Instead of using that simple document to link all the other documents that have proliferated over the years, we now have a host of other documents that are required to suit the whims and fancies of other organisations/Government departments. To put a stop to the proliferation that Birth Certificate needs to be modernised to bring it in line with todays technology.
Get it Donald. The introduction of ID cards. could be just that. No threat to civil liberties, just simple proof that you are who you say you are. Your link to all the the other information that resides in the data archives of people who claim to require specific details about you.
That new ID Card/Birth Certificate could be the key to the countless stores that hold infomation about you.
One more point Donald - Your lone circle of friends and relations known among themselves to be honourable and trust worthy do need to move outside their own little enclave. Of course perhaps money and time may well be saved if we issued group ID cards. where each member of the group vouches for the other. That may yield some interesting results.

Ancient Brit. I cannot understand where you are coming from.

First you say that we require nothing more innocuous than a birth certificate.

Then you go onto say that the introduction of ID cards. could be just
that. No threat to civil liberties.

Then you say That new ID Card/Birth Certificate could be the key to the countless stores that hold information about you.

That is the problem. I single key is dangerous. I don't want anyone to have a single key. That way people will get to know information that they are not entitled to, especially Governments. Multiple keys like birth certificates, driving licence and credit cards that only give specific information protects my privacy.

Nobody but my bank manager needs to know how much money I have in the bank and my bank manager doesn't need to know if I drive a motor vehicle or how many endorsements I have on my licence. A police officer doesn't need to know where I was born or what my fathers occupation was. An ID Card as you describe is likely to do all this and more.

No one individual or organisation has access to all the information and that is the way I like it.

Donald

How many people will be happy with biometric Chip and Pin credit cards to protect their cash ?

Well I am not going to read all that back log, but I am sure there will be talk of if they will be effective/workable, so going on the assumption that they do work and if they can be used to reduce benefit fraud to reduce costs to taxpayer and give a small increase to GENUINE people in neeed, then I say bring them in.
There will always be cowboy companies under the radar, but if major companies reqiured employees to show them and so did benefite offices then this may reduce false claims from some.
Presumably this would help in other benefit areas too, an increase in pensions would be particularly welcome as I am starting to see the approach of retirement in the distnace!
.....don't know if cards would see a general reduction in crimes such as fraud but that would benefit all as fraud loss is often included in total charges made to customers.
......not sure about big brother aspect, but quite a few jobs now require police checks anyway.