h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Anyone who has ever considered the question What is art? Or What it art for? Should definately read Bluebeard by Kurt Vonnegut - which i plug every couple of weeks, but it's not only the best book i've ever read on the subject of art, but also on a number of other subjects!

Potholer's comparison of the modern art world and fashion haute couture is right on the money. Both are self-perpetuating twaddle. The public (especially here in America) isn't engaged in art anymore. The last time I can remember the general public getting excited about an art show is when Wyeth's Helga pictures went on tour. Why do we no longer celebrate our artists? This goes for other creative fields as well. I read an interview with Phillip Roth yesterday wherein he announced that the work of fiction, the serious novel, is dead.

Phillip Roth's subjective evaluation is to be applauded for its honesty but there are still a few writers out there with something to say about the modern world - Cider House Rules, Widow for One Year and a few of William Gibson's.
If anybody else has read a good book lately I'd love to hear about it.

But Art, as you say Fraulien, has been denegrated to twaddle by commercialism.
jwf

There ARE good authors still out there. Roth used an example his own Portnoy's Complaint. When it was published in 1969 it sold 400,000 copies in the first week. Now the only books that sell that well are the Harry Potter series. John Irving, Roth, Salman Rushdie, Susan Sontag--yes, they still have a following, but Roth's point was that the general public just doesn't seem as interested anymore. The same could be said of art as well.

Speaking of the trend towards non-fiction, I just finished Robert Hughes' "The Fatal Shore" last night. I highly recommend it--it's about the founding of (penal) Australia.

My personal definition of art is 'that which evokes an emotion which could not be evoked by any other means' so for me there is a communication element, and the dead cows, the urinal, and even Tracey Emin's bed are art.

And sorry, ~jwf~ but that makes you an artist too...

Margaret Mead said that 'dirt is merely matter out of place' - so the art we are talking about here uses dis-locations instead of craftsmanship to evoke emotions, and the emotions may be disgust or disquiet, or astonishment. But they are still emotions. The green canvas worked - it produced an emotion (confusion). The question is - is that the emotion the artist hoped to produce?

There are another couple of allied topics here.

Creativity as Therapy - I write poems for personal catharsis, (but I circulate them for the sake of my ego).

Craft - Much of the skill has gone out of represational art, which is why we have the question about Photography in the first place. But much of what is considered art now was perhaps craft.

Creativity as Hobby - Amateurs do derive significant pleasure from doing watercolours, going on drawing holidays, and so on

and

Creativity as Meditation - when I did life-drawing, one of the things I liked the most about it was the effect it had of clearing my mind of all the cr@p I was dealing with at the time. I did not experience the same thing until I took up meditating, and in fact I achieved a better meditational clarity when drawing than I have when medidating. But there you go.

And finally I must refer you to the Conundrum of the Workshops by Rudyard Kipling (a writer of a lot of verse, and some poetry). I am posting a link on my links page. http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A545320

The verse is mannered and tedious, but it does pose a pertinant question or two, and I will post the stanza which is probably most a propos in a separate posting.

a dabbler called Ben

They builded a tower to shiver the sky and wrench the stars apart,
Till the Devil grunted behind the bricks: "It's striking, but is it Art?"
The stone was dropped at the quarry-side and the idle derrick swung,
While each man talked of the aims of Art, and each in an alien tongue.


The opening stanza of 'The Conundrum of the Workshops'by Rudyard Kipling

The green canvas did *not* work. It raised no emotion - indifference is lack of emotion, IMHO. It just made me think, 'What's the point?' Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-abstract. But there has to be more to a 'work of art' than just painting one solid colour. If I went out and took a photo of the front wall of our house (solid white-ish), I doubt that anybody would consider that art and I would agree with them. Why should paint on canvas be any different?

Choice of subject matter, lighting and use of colours (or light and shade on b/w) can all contribute to making a photograph a work of 'art'. I have a few books on photography and some of the pictures are definitely artistic. Others are just examples of good (or bad) photos. I guess that, like paintings and sculptures, it's in the eye and mind of the beholder.

On the subject of literature, I guess the problem is that, like film-makers, publishers tend to go for what sells. People want to be entertained, but they don't want to think. Films that require thought or that make you think (there's a difference) don't do as well as big effects blockbusters. In some cases they are released to cinemas in the States but go straight to video in the UK because distributors think / know they won't get their money back. Similarly, publishers think / know that 'literature' won't sell as well as the latest by Jeffrey Archer or whoever, so they don't print so many copies or publicise those books so much.

*gotta love h2g2*

And I thought I knew Kipling! That's a new on on me. Thanks Ben you've made my day and given me a new toy!

*rushes off to Kipple merrily*

peace
jwf

Always delighted to delight you ~jwf~

a kippler called Ben

If you're interested in reading a few researcher's book reviews why not try The Book Nook at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F29359?thread=122406

Iw onder how many conversations, like this one, just stopped dead on sept 11th. Look at the huge number in the archive whose last date is sept 10th.

Seems we had something else on our minds.

How many other debates, out there in RL just stopped dead too.

Yes it all took a new turn.I'm tending to contribute less and less to this site mainly because discussions like this aren't taking place any more.

We seem to have become as a site more insular,more frightened,less inclined to talk and more inclined to moan,b*tch and attack other people's opinions.Add to that too many chatty conversations or those set around 'games'.I haven't seen many non political,interesting conversations recently that I've wanted to contribute to.

Incog

There is something spooky going on out there in the real world and yes a lot of the old folks have wandered off. But I manage to find a few good conversations every week, in the Post or even Ask H2G2. And when I can't find a good one I try to elevate a bad one rather than bitch about it.

Another secret to h2g2 happiness is to recognise the names of the more intelligent and more mature researchers. It gets quite easy to scan a thread if you only read the postings of people you know and respect and enjoy.

Both Incognitas and the autist are known to me as contributors of worthy postings or I wouldn't have bothered to reply and thank you for reseurrecting this old discussion.

Quite rightly it seemed less important after Sept 11th and got forgotten. But now we need to revive more discussions of this calibre and press on with a positive attitude. It isn't really seeking the definitive answers to questions like whether Photography is art or not, but more about the nature of art and artists, autists and photographers.

That's what Sept 22th did, it made us pragmatic and cynical and we lost our romantic dispositions. Ask not where hath h2g2 goneth, but where has the love gone, generally.


~jwf~

Up to us to bring discussions like this back then...

Most of the old timers I know have abandoned all hope and now just play silly word games

daSilva (U91632. That's 5 numbers. Count 'em )

Well I've only got 5 digits and mine are lower than yours (U26139). So there!

So it's the just the 5 of us left then, eh.
Shall we call ourselves the 922s?

That's 'The Sept 22th Society', (as inspired by my unfortunate typo above). Theinference being that life goes on, oo-blah-dee-oo-blah-da, and what's done is done, so get on with it. Our mission, to restore wit and wisdom in a post-apocalyptic world.

Let us carry on then, bringing joy and enlightenment to cyberspace regardless of the death toll outside.


~jwf~

I saw this thread pop and started reading. Normally, I don't read threads as old as this one because there is usually just too much backlog, but there were only three pages and I was interested in the topic. And I thought the thread was really interesting and got me thinking about what I think is art and such. I did keep wondering what brought the thread back to the surface and was surprised when I got to the recent posts. So many things stopped in their tracks on September 11th.

As for what is art ... at first I completely disagreed with jwf (I think), the audience doesn't make the art. But that idea is growing on me, although I don't think it has to be a large audience to make it art. If it moves one person, it can be art. As for the artist who sold his sh*t in a can as art ... I think he's more of a con artist for getting money for that!

It seems apposite that this has been resurrected as it would seem that Picasso's Boy with a Pipe could be about to break the record for the most paid for a painting.

I'm afraid my attitude hasn't changed and I was enchanted by this year's Turner Prize winner's ceramics.Being into ceramics myself I'm glad to see that someone is still producing such artwork.Ceramics as subject have vanished from schools,having been relegated to 3D sculptures which aren't even glazed but painted and varnished(stupid health and safety rules )

Incog.

A shop selling art photos recently opened at the local market. And of course every single print they sell is black and white. How typical.