h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

...and, getting back to the original question; No, I don't. I just don't see why there should be one.

I can tell you that thermodynamics has got nothing to do with an afterlife. But because you hear it so often I´m not going to say right now, first I´ll find all the stuff I can on the subject. To really show how absurd it is.

If there's an afterlife, I very much doubt there's a rational explanation for how it works.

The 1st law of thermodynamics does it for me, as a METAPHOR, (note this Xanatic - its a METAPHOR in this context). Nothing else in the universe is wasted. We are all of us made from compost and stardust, even the piles of compost, even the stars.

For this reason I cannot beleive that the life-force, spirit, whatever, just flicks into nothing when we die. If it did, it would be the only thing in the universe that did.

Also, on a personal note, I was there when my father died. He died of cancer in 95, and had probably had it for 18 months or a couple of years when he died. I was aware of his energy, soul, whatever going away from us in a continual flow starting about a year before he died, and becoming inperceptable a couple of months afterwards. In a strange way, his death was not even the most important point on that journey, just the most clearly visible to us. He did not leave the room when his breath left his body.

Finally, the buddhist philosophy of karma, which can be summarised as cause and effect spiraling, turning and interweaving down the centuries, makes sense for me. I don't expect it to make sense for other people. But again, cause and effect is the iron law of the universe. It makes sense for it to apply to human actions, development, change and growth as well as to oceans, mountains, and galaxies.

I think I am probably an atheist, I can't buy the concept of a god with a personality. But as I have said on another thread, god is by his very nature infinite, the best we can hope for with our so very finite minds is to get a hint of a glimpse of an aspect of a facet of god. So our understanding of god is pretty meaningless anyway. Not, the goddess within... she is a different prospect entirely!

a buddhist called Ben

Yes, I think that makes sense... I do believe there is some kind of energy to life that's beyond the energy contained within our bodies.

Someone must have seen that email that got spammed all over the world.

Basically the jist of it was this. A teacher asked his physics class to write an essay on the question "Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic?".

The best answer was...

Assuming that anyone who doesn't believe in any give religion is going to hell and considering that there are many different religions on earth we can assume that every soul is going to hell. This means that in the end hell must be absorbing an infitinite number of souls.

The next problem is whether Hell is expanding faster or slower than the rate at which souls enter.
If Hell is expanding more slowly than this then it will be exothermic and heat up until all Hell breaks loose.
If Hell is expanding faster then the rate at which souls enter then it will cool down until Hell freezes over.
Now considering I (as in the author) asked the girl in the desk in front of me to go out with me and she replied "I'll go out with you when hell freezes over" and also considering the fact that we are sill not dating I conclude that Hell is indeed endothermic.

Da Dah!

Ben: I would guess that you are atheist with respect to Western theologies, agnostic towards Eastern religions, but theistic at some level. A belief in a "spirit" or "life force" suggests that you believe that *something* must be out there, if you can't quite define it.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is often misinterpreted in the defense of theology. It is the "in a closed system" part that renders that argument invalid. The earth is very much an open system, since it draws energy from an external source (the sun). If the sun were eliminated, the surface of the earth would definitely break down into full entropy. Deep-sea life would still continue, for as long as they continue to receive energy from deep below the crust.

Do I believe in an afterlife? No. I am atheist with respect to every religion I have ever encountered, and agnostic towards any I have not. But I have found that natural explanations do a far more acceptable job of explaning life, the universe, and everything, than supernatural ones.

Well your basic Newtonian physics is probably responsible for the polarised notion of Heaven and Hell to begin with. That, the War of the Roses and the Advent of Parliamentary debate all coicide with the Protestant reformation, so the dualistic tension is a natural concept.

However, there is also a tradition in English intellectual life from John Donne forward, which has created an image of Heaven perfectly suited for the likes of DNA. Joyce runs a small bar in the Catholic sector called 'the Pagan's Rest' where I believe Swift sweeps the floors and pours Oscar Wilde into a cab at closing every night. And a Hansom cab it is too. Lord Byron is the footman and John Lennon is in the traces.

I've always found it hard to define the divide between natural and supernatural... assuming what is widely regarded to be supernatural exists, then it's natural after all and the whole argument is invalid.

Science has not provided me with a convincing Reason, and since at heart I'm not a nihilist I have to look to spiritual things for the Reason. Not that I've found it there yet either, but it's somewhere else to look.

Colonel, you are probably right in what you say.

I have no clear opinion on whether or not there is a god. I am very clear on my beliefs in reincarnation though. I see no reason to suppose we live in an entirely material cosmos. But as to what is outside the cosmos.... Another question entirely.

agcB

I find the notion of DNA now existing in a cyberspace continuum quite intriguing. Certainly a broad enough spectrum of humanity lives here in hootooville to support his multiplex consciousness, and there is infinite connectivity to the rest of life and the universe to keep him occupied. It's just a shame we can't provide him more specific URLs on an ad lib basis. I mean if you're gonna keep bugs in a bottle make sure there are plenty of air holes in the lid.

Read a William Gibson book about someone who only exists in Cyberspace, a kind of Lara Croft with added brains, she has a virtual marriage to a rock-star.

'All Tomorrow's Parties' - actually a very good book, in a bleak and wierd kinda way.

agcB

Isn´t that book called Idoru? Named after the concept. I must admit I was quite surprised when that spread to the west. It seemed like one of those thing that could only happen in Japan

agcb: I cannot say anything about your personal experience. But it is true everything is reused in the universe. But what exactly makes you think the "soul" doesn´t either? And I don´t mean as reincarnation. But about the thermodynamics, imagine laying a puzzle. You can see some nice image on it after you´ve put it together. But if an earthquake comes the puzzle pieces will be spread randomly. All the pieces and stuff are still there, only you can´t see the image anymore. That is a bit similar to how it is with the mind. It is about the energy being disorganized.

The term supernatural basically refers to something that breaks the known laws of nature. As a miracle fore xample. But it is also used to refer to something like telepathy, because that also doesn´t seem to be explainable in any way that doesn´t break the known laws of nature. But scientific discoveries often happen when somebody finds something that doesn´t correspond to the known laws of nature. So that is in a sense supernatural, only it becomes natural. I personally prefer the term paranormal. Because something like aliens visiting from outer space isn´t something that breaks the laws of nature, yet it is something that is beyond what is normal.

Interesting post, Xanatic - I think I may agree with you (which is a bit startling! ) Idoru rings a bell. Her name is Roi Toei in the book. She is quite a nifty gal.

(In my cosmology) there is a difference between spirit, personality and ego. The personality and the ego do seem to disappear when we die, or shortly afterwards. It may help to view them as functions rather than energy.

The best way I can describe what I mean by reincarnation is to imagine waves breaking on a beach. It is the same water all the time, but sometimes the waves are small, sometimes they are big, sometimes they are foamy, and sometimes they just ripple. I see each lifetime as a different wave - same water - different wave. Not the same water and the same wave, again and again.

I dont think that I - A Girl Called Ben, will come back in exactly the same way, with a liking for chocolate, words and painting my toenails purple and all. There'd be no point, since it is all about change and growing.

But I do beleive that some of the energy, spirit, soul, whatever, that animates me may be recycled in a different form. That's all.

I can expect immediate extradition for this, but what the Hell...

I found this in a book of famous quotations. And do you know what? The man has a point.

"An apology for the Devil - It must be remembered that we have only heard one side of the case. God, it seems, has written all the books."
- Samuel Butler.

But the devil has all the best tunes! ()
Very nice quote.

That is one of the insecurities of religion. How do you know that God is the good guy? Maybe he is incarnated evil, and just tries to lure us to go against the devil who happens to be a weaker but good guy.

agcb: I´m glad if you like my post. I find you an interesting person so I´d like for you to see my point. But about reincarnation, do you then believe there are any memories transfered?

To side-track just a tad...

I'm an atheist (with a childhood wasted on religion, don't ask) with about as many spiritual beliefs as there are reasons to sit in watching BBC sitcoms for fun (anyone not familiar with BBC sitcoms, don't ask)(again).

I'm always ever infuriated by Jehovah's Witnesses knocking at the door with their children asking if I could spare a moment; until I realised one day that in fact I COULD spare a moment. So I let the man Witnesses speak for once. And so the smartly suited couple devoutly told me, in excruciating detail, all about their religion and why I should accept it and hold it dear. I listened to them, propped lazilly against the door-frame and nodding at appropriate moments to look as though I was taking an interest (which I was sort of begining to. Next time some Witnesses come round to your house, listen to them for a bit. It's fascinating stuff. Then chuck an angry cat at them).

This went on for some time, my faux-enthusiasm growing as they burbled on and on... And then they popped the Big Question.

"Would you like to join the Jehovah's Witnesses and embrace the love and will of God Almighty?"

I cocked my head to one side and smiled faintly, "I'd love to, but for the fact that I'm in league with Satan. Would you like a pamphlet?"

I had to force myself not to fall over laughing as they hurried off through the rain.

Now, as I said, I'm an atheist in every possible sense. But still I realise that something about that nasty little trick was fundamentally wrong. As far as I'm concerned it was just my sense of humour (you'd do well not to ask again) giving itself an outlet. As far as my friends are concerned I'm pure Evil with a nice smile.

So tell me. Rather severe practical joke or malicious will of the Dark Lord? I'd really like to know on this one.

I believe that modern science is wrong about most things it says about human nature, the nature of mind, memories and so on. I believe there is something to reincarnation, but I think it is more complicated than the traditional view. I believe memories do not reside in human brains, I believe memories are stored in a kind of medium that is somehow independent of spacetime, it is potentially accessible at any time and place. So when people die their entire lifetime's memories are still conserved. Somebody else at a later stage might tune in to these memories, in fact these memories continue to have an active influence on other things and events. The past remains present. But there might be something different as well, an individual soul, that is also a kind of pattern carried by the medium that carries memories, and this pattern remains after a person has died and may even be aware and active. It will be a different kind of existence than the physical existence though. I don't know these things for sure but I suspect them based on many experiences, and because they make sense of many things that otherwise make no sense.

Very interesting dialogue between Ben and Xanatic. But I think there is a fallacial underlying assumption in Ben's point of view.

Think of a car. When the engine is running, it is a thing of energy. It rattles, it roars, it moves things around in various ways and responds to input. In a manner of speaking, it is a living, breathing thing.

Now, turn off the key. It is, for all intents and purposes, devoid of life. It sits there and does nothing. If left in this condition indefinitely, its parts will begin to rust and rot, until nothing remains that could be called a car. All of its pieces will recycle into the planetary system, to be reborn in various other forms.

That's how I view people. The "life force" we see is merely the energy we produce through chemical interactions with our food, which gives us the ability to rattle, roar, move things around, and respond to input. When we die, we're just like a car with its engine shut off... the energy of life is still there, but the energy conversion processes are no longer taking place. The potential energy in your body will be recycled when something else digests and processes you, and the cycle of life continues. The components that made you up continue, but broken into millions of parts of things that no longer resemble the person you used to be.

That's the naturalistic version of reincarnation. It fits what we know about life, without having to make allowances for this mysterious thing we call a "soul." I tend to think that a "soul" isn't any physical thing, but more of a concept that can describe an impression of who and what we are as individuals. That soul will live on in the memories of others, and it can affect civilization in many and profound ways (chaos theory is a good description of this). Your soul can also live forever... I have an excellent impression of the soul of Samuel Clemens, but his barber's soul is probably lost in the mists of time.