h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oh dear. No, I think that the brain functions behind ordinary thinking stuff are the same but that the behaviours of men and women are different because of external influences. Men and women don't think the same things just like two men don't think the same things or the world would be very dull.

Potholer, how would you like it if I told you when to go to bed?

I am a . Admit it, you suspected as much.

Yes, I did eventually replace my A6 Wacom tablet with an A4 one. I'm not sure it was worth the money although the 4D mouse is cool and you don't get that with the smaller tablets. Most of the time I have the working area set to A6 anyway to reduce arm movements.

There are some seriously fundamental differences in thinking between *people*.

Ignoring sex, and just taking the example of two individuals, in a previous (still hidden) h2g2 conversation about dreams, I mentioned that I dream in full technicolour, surround sound, touch, taste, everything, and another researcher said she dreamed in *words*. I simply can't begin to imagine what that might be like, and I can't see that as being socially influenced.
If differences so fundamental are an inherent part of the human experience, some people really must think hugely differently to others. Even if she was only *misremembering* her dreams as purely verbal, or I was only reconstructing mine as being fully sensory, it still implies a serious internal difference in nature of thought.

You mean you don't use the quickpoint mode?
After getting used to a PenPartner, and then an Intuos A6 pad at work, I'm conditioned to use the small area, so quickpoint is a real boon (plus I usually have a teapot and a few magazines on the rest of the tablet, except when playing in Photoshop).

Aaargh - I'm simulposting with *myself* now

So the question then becomes at what level are issues of love dealt with? If it is instinctive, then men and women surely think in similar ways. If it is on a more rational level (if the term can be applied in such a context) then clearly there would be differences. My theory would be that the initial stages of courtship follow the rational pattern of selection but later stages result in instinctive responses.

As a personal note, yes I would like to be cherished. But it appears that I cannot speak on behalf of the rest of my gender

So, you're either a vampire, or an old bat? (or there wasn't a graphic for night owl?)

Oh, well, might as well make this comment too, even though my previous words might as well have been posted in invisble type or something. I don't think I am intimidated by women whom I perceive as more intelligent than I am. But such a comparison would hardly register in the first place. You can list desired traits all you like, but *attraction* rarely works like that. I don't mean just physical attraction either. If I'm drawn to someone I'm surely not going down a mental list of so many ideals and picking out inadequacies, that's for sure, and that includes intelligence. That said, intelligence *is* attractive, and I stand by my claim. If others wish to generalize about men in that way, well, please don't let me spoil your fun.

Why, potholer, should it imply a serious difference in thought?
The process is the same for both of you, it's the interpretation based on your experiences that shapes how you 'view' you dreams.

If we *do* dream in very different ways, I'd take that to imply at least a bias towards different styles of thinking while awake.

If it is actually a matter of two people remembering (ie reconstructing) fundamentally similar internal events in such different ways, that must surely imply the possibility of those varied methods of reconstruction having some effect on waking thought processes.

Given that the world in real life is colourful, noisy, tactile, and presumably roughly similarly so for most people, I can't really see how experience should particularly bias me towards dreaming the way I do, whereas someone else exposed to broadly the same kinds of stimulus would either view things, or remember their view of things, *that* differntly to me unless there was some innate preference between us for one style of thought over another.

Anyway, I don't *interpret* my dreams as visual, tactile or whatever, I'm often aware enough when dreaming to know that I do dream visually, sometimes more or less abstractly, but usually very realistically, and I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that the other person was misremembering her own dreams.

Sorry to turn up late when all the disagreements seem to have calmed down. I popped in a couple of days ago and thought I had nothing to add - mainly because I knew so little about the subject under discussion. But now that I've ploughed through the enormous back-log I see that nobody has mentioned one little indicator that supports Amy's contention that men are intimidated by more intelligent women. Some time ago I read an article about violence. It was trying to explain the origins and functions of violent behaviour. One thing it mentioned was that violence is resorted to by men very much more often than women and that it was common for male violence to be directed at a female partner if she expressed a wish to get a job or go to college. Make what you will of that. Loss of control seems to be the issue. Perhaps the insecure man finds it more difficult to control a partner who is more intelligent than he is.

Sal

The confusion between aggression and assertion might also have something to do with this - an assertive move by the woman is misinterpreted and met by an aggressive one from the man.

I think some men are particularly bad when it comes to ending an argument they're losing (or at least not winning).

The previous place I lived, the woman next door had a real a**hole boyfriend who would get kicked out every few months, usually after a long and noisy argument, though no violence beyond door slamming and suchlike.
Usually he'd have to make several attempts to make things up afterwards, but the way he behaved would actually have been laughable if it hadn't been so predictable and lengthy. The standard pattern would be that he'd stand outside the house pleading through the letterbox to be let in, saying how sorry he was, much he loved her, etc. for something around an hour, but when he was either being clearly ignored, or she threatened to call the police, he'd punch or kick the door a few times, shout a few incoherent threats, and storm off, thereby undoing what little good his hour of earlier apologies might have done.

Late comer to a winding down discussion - as usual, when its really interesting. I had a few thoughts earlier on when Asteroid Lil, CS, and Amy were bantering about Mensa etc.... Which I notepadded and here they are:

Regarding Mensa:
I have considered joining - just out of curiosity but decided I would rather not part with the money just to find out how intelligent I really am. I have taken various tests which imply my intelligence is in the upper percentile (as is my Brothers). However my Brother and i specialise in different subjects (me Computing him Maths - he lectures at Uni) - I consider him to be more intelligent than me,, hmmmm I'm trying to be honest here so I must say that I don't consider him to be more intelligent (my scores have occasionally been higher than his in tests) - BUT I am Lazier than him and so have, maybe, not achieved as much (He's been published I've not, he's got a PhD, me not...). My GF thinks I am intimidated by his intelligence - but I'm not I - have been intimidated by his achievements, in the past. But we have always got on very well. My friends, on the whole, are of a similar intelligence & knowledge level - One in particular has an encyclopaedic knowledge of Trivia (v. useful in Pub Quizes).

I think one of the most important things about intelligence is NOT admitting you are wrong but learning from mistakes (which may or may not mean admitting you were wrong) (though I could be wrong about this).

So on the whole, I don't think I feel intimidated by Intelligence, whether from a "Bloke or a Bird" - but I have felt intimidated by Power and or Beauty(physical) & Knowledge - especially when I have said something which I held to be true, only to be shot down by someone with greater KNOWLEDGE, or who has progressed to the next level of Lies (lies to Children, Lies to Readers, lies to Adults, Lies to Users - see The Science of Discworld for more on this). I occasionally find myself continuing to argue my point even when knowing (or even only suspecting) this to be wrong - and yes I know this to be an unintelligent stance, but it seems to be the way I am made.

Back to the Original Question: What do you men look for in a woman then? I can only talk for myself, but I suspect that others feel the same way. Initially I am attracted by looks (there honesty!), what matters then depends - there is a greater likelihood that I would feel intimidated by a truly Beautiful woman than by an intellectual one - if a woman meets my minimum looks level (sorry I tried to find another way to say this...) I would then go all shy and retreat into my shell (actually this happened with all girls). But beyond that I would be more interested by good interesting conversation (Hole Dug I think....) If the question were "what, physically, attracts you to a woman?" I have to answer: I DON'T KNOW! I have been attracted to all types, Blonde, Brunette, Ginger, Busty, flat, medium, tall, short, fat, slim, etc....

When I found my current GF (6 years ago!) I wasn't really looking at all - I met her playing softball and we chatted and I fell in love with her (aaaaH) (she is Tall, Brunette, medium, slim, intelligent, knowledgable, & funny) . If I try and analyse why, well: important things seem to be: Shared interests, a similar level of intelligence and education/knowledge, a similar level of attractiveness to oneself (except I consider my GF to be gorgeous and myself to be ,hmmm, plain)(studies seem to show that people go not with the most Beautiful person they can get, but with ones closest to their own level of "Beauty" (I mean long term)) (I do tend to ramble don't I?)), a similar age.

From this it seems that Similarities play an enormous part in drawing people together, I believe (with no evidence apart from my own) that what keeps people together is what they build/share together, with differences providing continued interest (and Conflict!). Oh what do I know.......


P.S. I am a man, and I DO Iron!!

Note to self. Must not post when tired.

I'll shut up in a minute, I really wll. Note to self. Must shut up.

OK, intelligence as learning capacity (difficult as then there is a difference between the capacity which has actually been trained and one which hasn't) and aquired knowledge (again somewhat limited by the subjects capacity to learn). And the fact that different people have different capacities in different areas. Still diffucult to compare.

Shutting up. Shut up Solnushka. Pull up. Pull up.

"Your argument also goes wrong logically because you confuse skills with intelligence." - Incorrect. I chose to discuss skills, as opposed to overall intelligence, because that was the easy part of your hypothesis to refute. You made three statements way back when. One was that men cannot be with women who are more intelligent. This is a perceptual thing. If I have not perceived a woman to be more intelligent, the discussion is meaningless.

The other was that men cannot be with women who are more skilled than they are. This is also a perceptual thing. However, skills are easier to measure than general intelligence. I am not of "middling intelligence" among my coworkers... you are taking me out of context again. We are talking about skills, not intelligence. My supervisors do have greater skills at this job than I do, and you contend that I should perceive it as a threat and evidence your coping skills. The fact that I, one man, have not done this is evidence that your original hypothesis "Men cannot be with women who are more skilled than they are" at least partially incorrect.

If this one illustration about skills was applied to a greater discussion about intelligence, I am sure we could come up with more examples.

Here is an alternate hypothesis:

In some instances, people (not just men exclusively) react to others that they perceive to possess a greater intelligence (or strength, beauty, charisma, etc.) in a negative manner, invoking some of the previously mentioned coping mechanisms.

In some instances, people react to others that they perceive to possess a greater intelligence, etc., in a positive manner, seeking to befriend them, in order to learn from them, gain prestige via association, a form of hero worship, etc.

Discuss.

I thought I covered that - see post 212

"There are really three set courses of action if you meet someone who is better than you at something:
1. Resent them. This leads to the competitiveness, trying to take them down a peg or two, basically the tactics Amy claimed were employed as coping strategies (post 102)
2. Idolise them. There is no way you can be better so they are worthy of worship.
3. Accept them."

I also mentioned that which course of action you take would depend on your perception of how important that trait or skill is within your own sense of identity and (possibly) your level of maturity.

Colonel, in the first part of your post you are clutching at straws. I could run a coach and horses through your logic yet again but I can't be bothered, you'll only come back with the same errors. You needed a good kicking in the personal principles and I've obliged but I'm not expecting instant results. One day in the future, probably at a time of relationship breakup, the penny will drop and you'll realise that I tried to do you a favour.

I can do no more for now.

In the second part of your post you give us little new information; on the whole you just rearrange what I said and Dancing Ermine so eloquently summarised. You add hero worship and gain prestige via association to the positive conscious responses a person might make. I feel very inclined to move them to the negative responses. How does everyone else feel about this?

It is true that they are more positive responses than throwing insults and the like, however I think they would be perceived as negative by those not directly involved. Think about your reaction to the thought of Yes-men or the hysterical responses of music fans (particularly teenage girls)

It's good to see that you've stood by your pledge to avoid personal attacks.

Not.