h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yes, ME@SF, we do get news from Israel/Palestine in the UK, and many of us feel that Israel is screwing things up for itself and others even if it is more "democratic" than any of the countries that surround it.

Mund, thanks
I know that you do in the UK, I was wondering about the US, I know while I was there, there wasn't really as much coverage as you would get in Europe for example.
I hope that being more "Democratic" does not give you the right to inflect pain and injustices on others, especially those who you occupy their land. this oppression will only lead to more violence.

btw, has anyone heard about a poll by CNN in which 31% of Americans approved putting Arabs living in the US in camps? I don't know if this true, I would appreciate it if someone could give more info.

peace&Justice to ALL

The word "democratic" is so important that it can cover a multitude of evils. Might it be the democratic will of the people of Afghanistan that their former king should return?

He seems wonderfully democratic himself - reported as wanting to come back as head of state but not king. I'm not sure about that (and he does have the slight disadvantage of being over eighty years old - check the beliefs of his children, grandchildren, etc), but we might never know.

I think that was poll of New Yorkers. That was what the headline read, but the question was phrased a little differently. They were asked about putting people in internment camps if they were suspected of having ties to terrorist organizations.

That's a little different. It's not a whole lot better.

Democracy can easily be used to oppress minorities. Three wolves and a chicken voting on dinner is a democracy. A lynch mob is another example of a democracy. In the United States, our form of government is set up to protect us from democracy. Let us not forget, that Hitler won an election.

As Churchill observed, democracy is pretty stupid: it's just better than the alternatives.

As a teacher of mine asked - when speaking of democracy, do you place the stress on the "dim", the "mock" or the "crass"? He wasn't one of my favourites.

I would argue that what we have in America, or at least what we're supposed to have is better. I think a Constitutional Federal Republic is a pretty darn good form of government.

And lets not forget, the USSR post 1931 was a democracy too - it doesn't mean an awful lot. Usually it's just a form of appeasement. What does your share of democracy add up to? a dozen X's in a lifetime? Not a lot is it. And even then you're not voting for someone to represent your veiws but for which dictator you'd prefer for the next few years. As Ken Livingstone (British polititian) once said "If voting changed anything they'd ban it".

I'd just like to point out how alarming i find the phrase "Modern State" in this context - the Taleban is a much more "modern state" than the UK or US it has only been in existence for what, 8 years? And surely restoring a monarchy is hardly a "modern" idea. I can only conclude that you think the idea of an Islamic state is an outmoded concept (make way for the New World Order). I dislike the idea of religious states, but then i dislike religion, but i do quite like freedom, and i like the idea that if people want a religious state, they can have one, and f**k the US. The Taleban are not a popular government, the people of Afghanistan deserve what the worlds superpowers have been denying them for a century, which is to govern themselves in their own manner - which i guess would be an Islamic government. As Martin Bell said at his defeat in the last election "The people have spoken - the Bast*rds".

you are all taking some phrases too literally (modern government) or taking things out of context. i don't think any of you are very educated about history, or you would not be making these ignorant statements. I'd give you examples, but i'd be afraid you'd defend them and then I'd have to go kill myself. go to college, or something.

kg

OK Goens001... define "modern".

"I'd just like to point out how alarming i find the phrase "Modern State" in this context - the Taleban is a much more "modern state" than the UK or US it has only been in existence for what, 8 years?"

"modern state" does not refer to how long someone has been in power. That's just stupid.

"I can only conclude that you think the idea of an Islamic state is an outmoded concept (make way for the New World Order). I dislike the idea of religious states, but then i dislike religion, but i do quite like freedom, and i like the idea that if people want a religious state, they can have one, and f**k the US."

I do not think that they should not have the right to have an islamic state. from what everyone has been saying, the taliban is not enforcing anything written in the koran, but is oppressing these peace loving people. you have to understand, however, that the people of afghanistan did not choose to elect the taliban. they fought to get into power and squashed the opposers. the people of afghanistan fear the taliban. my idea of a modern state would be one that is at least supported and elected by the public. the religion of islam is a peace loving religion that is not offensive to me in any way.


"The Taleban are not a popular government, the people of Afghanistan deserve what the worlds superpowers have been denying them for a century, which is to govern themselves in their own manner - which i guess would be an Islamic government."

you contradict yourself! the people of afghanistan have said they would like their old king from the 30's-70's to come back and put in place a more democratic government. they love him. he even supported women in afghanistan when he was king. the people of afghanistan want the king. we are simply helping the people get what they want.


no one is trying to take away their islamic state. we are bff with saudi arabia, and that's where freakin mecca is! please, for the love of god, look at some facts before you start vandalising this forum.

Afghanistan's Constitution of 1978 was a secular/Marxist document along the lines of "everybody's free". Similar to democratic/republican western states.

The Contitution of 1990 - The Islamic State - essentially puts Afghanistan under an undeclared version of Sharia Law.

Both these documents , as well as a reasonable history of Afghanistan
are available at a site called Afghanistan Online.

Ok, the Taliban maybe not the greatest, but lets not forget that all the countries that were involved in the Afghan/USSR conflict. After that, from 90~96 the different "mujahdeen"groups turned into factions fighting for control, yet no one could really control the country. During that time crime spread throughout the Afghanistan. The Taliban came to power, and set law in the land, stopped crime, and the almost all of the tribes put their hands with the Taliban because simply they were tired of the fighting, they felt that Taliban was the only power able to bring law to the country.
Again the Taliban are not the greatest, but they have done some good to the Afghans, they have even destroyed their vital Opium farms so that the country could get support from the world, but that support never came!!
for me, I would say that the best decision is for the UN to manage some kind of vote between the poor afghans living in Pakistan and Iran, and see what form of govmt they want.

Bin laden "might" be the one behind the Sept 11th terrible events. However, if we are really looking for justice, then why don't the US show the Taliban what they are asking for : an Evidence, and Please show it to the world

thanks


Peace & Justice for ALL

As we spare a thought for the poor and oppressed, do we know what the Afghans for example want? No one has aksed them. We all assume that what is good for us and seems acceptable TO US must be good and acceptable to them.
This is where I disagree with poponents of this "modern" thing whatever it is. A people should be left to make ther own decisions. If these decisions are awry to us, at least we should respect that they made THAT decision. In the early 90s (I forget the dates) the election (read that again ELECTIONS) in Algeria was won by..... hold your breathe..... over 90%!!!! But because the group that won the elections were considered "not friendly" to the West the elections were cancelled and todate I dont think any have been held! Now how much more a message do u want. 90% and you are told, NO! By outsiders!
Its unfortunate but factual to say that democracy means you lick the boots of the US and its cronies. If your thinking is any different.... you are not democratic!
Now before nyone flies off with vitriol here, read this piece again then answer in a coheret fashion. I like debating not arguing.

Peace!

We have gone and asked them what they want, and the people of Afghanistan have very fond memories of their old king.

now as for what you said about "listen to what the afghans want", let them make their own decisions, etc...do you have any idea the atrocities that are going on in Afghanistan as we speak?? it's not like we're just pissed off and we decided to uproot their government. their "government" sucks! they kill women lined up in soccer fields for nothing more than showing their faces in public or going out without a family escort. women can't even go to the doctor. and more fundamental is the fact that the people of afghanistan are forced by the taliban to adhere to their strict religious laws and they have no choice in the matter. they can't even get a hair cut if it's not to a certain standard set by the taliban!

in an interview on cnn last night, men of afghanistan were talking about how they loved the old king, and the king of pakistan who was interviewed in detail the other day, said that he really liked the guy and that he agreed with putting him into power.

i think you people are giving the taliban way too much credit. they are EVIL. do some research. look taliban up on the internet. for now I think i'm going to unsubscribe from this conversation, since I really can't take much more of hearing these comments on things you know nothing about.

Ahmed

As you have virtually said, when you throw bombs over the fence don't be surprised if a bomb comes back with your return address. You can't have it both ways. It is the same in life as in a debate, so one shouldn't play innocent when you get a return bomb in your lap. You have thrown out some very vile statements my friend.

I think part of the issue with Afghanistan is they have been a pawn in the hands of some colonial, superpower, etc for hundreds of years. The last one being the end of the cold war. The West actively sought to send extremist looking to overthrow their own governments into Afghanistan to fight. The Soviets got tired and left, they were abandoned by the West and left to fend for themselves. Any natural grown government stability or infrastructure gone. Their government was up for graps by any local groups who had the power. The Taliban born in the refugee camps had the power and so they dominated. The result is what we have now a country that is a breeding ground for fundamental terrorist placed their largely by the West.

I am assuming that Afghans are just like me in they first want to eat, have a warm bed and not worry about their chilldren being killed. After that is done then one can ask me what form of government I want. To be honest few would care about the Taliban (sure it is terrible what they do to their own people)except the Taliban allow terrorist from many countries to find a safe haven and operate with their help. True the reason they are there is due largely to the West and the cold war but they show no desire to get rid of them and scatter them to the four winds.

Perhaps you can educate me about Algeria (a former French colony with strong ties to France). Why does the US not want free and fair elections to take place? A mandate of 90% is a movement that would be hard to surpress? I heard about it but didn't understand why it occurred and now you tell me the US was involved?

Ahmed, I found yr information interesting, and very alarming. Does no one *care* that the US does this kind of thing?

Well, no-one cared while the US did this to Nicaragua in the 80's and 90's, and hey! no-one has batted an eyelid this past month while they've been interfering in elections there again this month!

Boring, but what we have to do is research and form ideas...

And more importantly, when we have ideas, we must act upon them. And if that means standing up to our own governments before standing up to the greater tyrants, then that is what we must do.