h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Here’s a question for you. Has the moral decay of our society, (read as world society), reached the point of no return?

Maybe it’s just better media coverage, but there just doesn’t seem to be the same moral outrage anymore when we hear about immoral behavior. Are we all desensitized from seeing it on the news everyday? Have we all become so used to hearing about immorality that we don’t care any more?

Before everyone goes nuts, I’m not trying to start a discussion about consensual sexual behavior. I don’t see any thing wrong with whips, chains, leather paddles... maybe a little candle wax. Whatever floats your boat is fine as long as both parties are adults and consenting. I’m sure someone else has started this discussion and it is as lively and fun as the topic.

Lets take this one moral outrage at a time, that’s why I called it part one. I’d like to start with a big one. Child molestation. It seems like every week there are new stories about child molestation. 4 year olds, 6 year olds, 8 year olds, 14 year olds. They’re all children, not just in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes of almost all adults as well. It’s even reached the point where television shows are receiving awards for encouraging child molestation(I’ll explain this in a moment).

I’m not going to go into details about the 4, 6, and 8 year olds. I think 99% of us agree that this is wrong.

However, just to make sure everyone is on the same page, I consider a female teacher having sexual relations with a 14 year old boy, molestation. I know there is a double standard here, but there doesn’t seem to be the same moral out rage here as there is when it’s a 14 year old girl with a male teacher. Sure the female teacher is arrested and charged, but there definitely seems to be a lack of moral outrage among the media. I don’t know if there is a lack of outrage in the community because my only observation of the community is through the media. Recently one teacher who had an affair with a 15 year old boy and had a child with him has been released from prison and it is my understanding that she is back together with him, he’s now over 18, and they are planning on having more children. Call me crazy, but should this woman be allowed to raise children? She’s a convicted child molester.

I don’t watch the show, but it is my understanding that the TV show Desperate House Wives recently had a plot line where one of the wives was having an affair with a 16 year old boy. Does this mean that it’s becoming socially acceptable for women, (ie, over the age of 25), to have sexual relationships with teenagers?

I know that this may be a stretch, but there is seems to be a moral decay here that is affecting our children. I don’t know if it’s happening in the rest of the world, but children, 8, 10, and 12 year olds, in America no longer consider oral sex, sex. They are having parties that they call anything but parties. The rule at the parties is anything but intercourse. I’m not going to point a fingers here as to were this attitude developed. You can all do that your selves. I know this may seem unbelievable, but my wife works in elementary schools and the nurse there has told her about trying to explain to 12 and 13 year olds how they got a sexually transmitted disease in their throat. They just don’t consider oral sex, sex.

Is everyone aware that parents are having trouble finding children after the tsunami because the red cross and U.N can’t post pictures, descriptions or names. They can’t post personal information of the children because people are coming in to claim the children and then selling them into prostitution. We’re talking about 4, 6 and 8 year olds here. Maybe I’m mistaken about 99% of us knowing that having sex with children is wrong. As a matter of fact, I guess I know I am wrong. The fact that there is an organization called N.M.B.L.A,(I think these initials are right, please don’t correct me if I’m wrong) out there encouraging men to have sex with young boys and planning trips to Thailand to where they can take advantage of children without fear of criminal charges, tells me I’m wrong.

Am I way off base here? Maybe I’m just expecting to much of society.

Are our morals, as a world society, eroding? Or is 24/7 media coverage just making it look that way?

>> I consider a female teacher having sexual relations with a 14 year old boy, molestation.

It's certainly an abuse of power. The problem with relationships between teachers and pupils is the inequality of status. Does a pupil feel they can say "no" to a teacher in the same way they would to anyone else? Isn't there an implicit trust in the role of a teacher which says they will act in the best interest of the pupil?

I don't believe that your average 14 year old is ready to make informed decisions about their personal life but, unfortunately, your reproductive system is screaming at you to go forth and multiply. It is entirely wrong for a teacher to take advantage of this but I wouldn't say this is symptomatic of the decline of society. People have been abusing power for time immemorial.

Now G.W.Bush and global capitalism.... there's yer decline of society!...

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1) If you don't watch the show how can you honestly say that the plot line encourages child molestation?
2) In the UK the legal age of consent is 16 (not sure about the US which I believe is where Desparate Housewives is made), therefore I see nothing wrong with this from a moral perspective assuming that the teenager was consenting and the woman wasn't a teacher or relative.

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Yes, the problem is not that there is more molestation, incest or child prostitution nowadays but that the media is actually able to report it. Until quite recently these were very much 'taboo' and thus were never mentioned and often completely ignored.

Guys if ur over 16 you are considered old enough to make the decision, so the choice is in ur hands. If you are under 16 I feel the adult who touched the child should be shot on the spot.

But to say that this is a decay in moral values , guys i'm 27 and those games mentioned have been played since I was 12, In Ireland...
and Ireland is repressed at the best of times...........

TV repesentation is this I fel is positive because it opens up the subject and I fel make the issue more social viable for children/teenagers who find themselves in these dreadful positions

Morals aren't eroding. All this happened in the past. The news media just didn't report it.

They are however, or so it would seem changing over time. In teh past, certinaly pre 1960's the view on 'age of consent', and those under 15 or 16 being sexually active was very different; I can't recall the exact details of teh case, that bloke, 'King' got 'done' a few years back for child molesting eents that occured many many years previous; and he ended up in jail for quite some time I seem to recall; if he'd been charged under teh laws enforced at the time at which the events took place, he'd have gotten off a lot more lightly. I think if anything, and probably partly due to 'us' all being a lot more media savy and up to date on everything happening in the world, we have a lot more 'strict' view of such things nowdays as compaired to the morall outlook on such things in teh past, when people mighten not have so easily known of them for a start....

our attitudes towards children have also changed, as a society.
OK, this is not recent past and is a gradual process and a generalisation, but as time has passed so medicals cience and diet and environment have improved in the UK such that we no longer expect the death of any of our children, as opposed to expecting a high percentile death rate. Since we expect all our children to reach maturity, anything that happens to them of such a horrific nature is even more shocking.

I was seduced by an older woman when I as 15. She didn't succeed because even at that tender age I had it in the back of my mind that something wasn't quite right. Looking back I sometimes wish I had let her succeed.

Shortly after I was "chatted up" by a man. Again he didn't succeed in what I thought he was after because instinct told me there was something wrong. Looking back I realised exactly what he was after and my instincts were right.

Shortly after my younger sister was accosted by an older man while walking home from school. Fortunately she was able to fight him of and make a run for it.

This happened in the early sixties and if any of these people had succeeded that chances are, as Gnomon suggests, you would only have read about it in the News of the World.

I think there is a greater moral outrage is repect to girls having sex under age becasuse the consequences are far greater than they are for a boy. I doubt very much if my sister looks back and wishes for even one moment that man had succeeded.

Donald

Good point. I guess since I don’t watch the show I shouldn’t have said that the plot encourages child molestation. I don’t know that it does.

That’s an interesting point Donald. There is definitely a double standard at play here and I fall prey to it myself. There is a tendency to look at a 14 year old boy who is seduced by an older woman and say, “Way to go kid.” You rarely hear of the boy’s complaining that they were taken advantage of. It’s usually quite the opposite. They get caught because they’re bragging to friends about getting lucky with the hot teacher.

When it’s a 14 year old girl, there is never a doubt in the public eye that the adult male was taking advantage of the naive young lady.

Maybe it’s just better media coverage,

Better? I wouldnt necessarily use that word, *more* for sure, but better and more are not always the same thing.

"there just doesn’t seem to be the same moral outrage anymore when we hear about immoral behavior.

Well if you look back Im sure there are archives showing conquring armies advising their troops not to dally with or rape the defeated population not out of moral concerns but because of worries about defection, disease or dillution of the *pure blood*.

When was this mythical golden moral age you seem to be harking back to?



"It’s even reached the point where television shows are receiving awards for encouraging child molestation(I’ll explain this in a moment).

Im assuming never having watched the show that it *is* getting awards for being reasonably or very well written with performances to match and having original quirky concepts and presentation, which is what I hear from other people.

I KNOW that it is NOT getting awards for encouraging sex with minors or child molestation because if there were an award for such things Id know about it even as a person who hates award shows I know the stink kicked up would be such that it would even get to me.




"I’m not going to go into details about the 4, 6, and 8 year olds. I think 99% of us agree that this is wrong.

Maybe you should go into details, I mena to say I think you should look inot some details rather than just say what percentage of people find underage sex or child molestation to be wrong.



"I know there is a double standard here, but there doesn’t seem to be the same moral out rage here as there is when it’s a 14 year old girl with a male teacher. Sure the female teacher is arrested and charged, but there definitely seems to be a lack of moral outrage among the media.

Well you've sort of answered your own question.

In the "Old South" It was a cot uncommon fact of life that if a black man had CONSENSUAL sex with a woman of legal age he would be hung for rape, he might *even* be tried. Whereas a white man could rape a blackwoman and only really be worried if his wife or in-laws found out. There was very little media coverage of this situation. Like I say when were things more moral than they appear to be now?



"Recently one teacher who had an affair with a 15 year old boy and had a child with him has been released from prison and it is my understanding that she is back together with him, he’s now over 18, and they are planning on having more children. Call me crazy, but should this woman be allowed to raise children? She’s a convicted child molester.

Hey CRAZY,

He is the father what could be more moral than a family unit? Have you ever heard of serving your time, debts to society being payed?

Forgiveness?



"Does this mean that it’s becoming socially acceptable for women, (ie, over the age of 25), to have sexual relationships with teenagers?

Society is a very,very BIG thing if you ask 14 year old boys I suspect you'll find society giving you an answer you wont like ask some ladies of a certain age and you'll find likewise.

"8, 10, and 12 year olds, in America no longer consider oral sex, sex.

Bill Clinton's older than that isnt he



The rule at the parties is anything but intercourse. I’m not going to point a fingers

If you're not willing to point the finger maybe that's why you're not invited to any of these parties

that was below the belt...as the actress...

Yes Ive been to such parties and lost something I didnt even know I had at the time at an impromptu one many moons ago.


I’m not going to point a fingers here as to were this attitude developed. You can all do that your selves.

You are so right I lost my cherry at 12 and blame only ME! Because if it hadnt been while my mom and missX's mom had left us to go and play bingo it would have been a few weeks later with missY on a blackberry picking jaunt along the canal paths etc..etc... ME, my willy and my hormones are all to blame.

NOw you do go on to admit how wrong you are which is fine but what you are looking for is answer to the question of if other people do it why dont I? or the converse and equally valid question of why arent other peoples morals the same as mine.

Simply put it is like this we are all different and create moral codes to fit ourselves and our drives. If we dont its likely we are mentally ill or perhaps its being unable (because of force of law, family or peer pressure) to create a moral code that fits our individual drives drives which triggers mental illness.... the jury is still out on that one.

Some people fall outside the mainstream we either accept them and broaden out moral parrameters or fight a losing battle trying to get them to conform. Lately though we have started to accept them while trying to mittigate the effects of their deviant behaviour. Now I know the string em up brigade dont like this but I think its a much better answer.

one love

When I was at school and 14 we got a new female teacher who basically every lad in the year fancied.

Now it was quite a long time ago so I cannot be sure, but I reckon 90% of the lads in my year would have given their right bollock to sleep with her and most of us tried to flirt a bit.

Now if any of them had been succesful would it have been molestation? Not IMHO, sure it would have been improper, and a massive abuse of power but molestation? 14 year old lads spend most of their time desparatly trying to have sex, thats what we did.

Sheesh....

So no change there then!

Actually it's a very interesting question which deserves serious thought.

Is the question:

Is there more child 'molestation' now than there used to be in the past?

or is it that we find child molestation more acceptable nowadays than we used to in the past?

Firstly, what is a child?
Well that depends, on culture, it could be biological - from first period for example; it could be cultural/social a particular age, 9-21 years old. Or it could be determined on ability to make free choice, e.g. intellectually sub-normal may never reach the stage where they can make informed choice.
We, as the powerful adults, make the decision that those classified as 'children' should not be subjected to sexual advances.

I don't think the 'morals' according to the definition above have changed in no matter what society or time we refer to. However, in order to have to have edicts against something it must surely indicate that it happens.

It's very difficult to ascertain exact numbers per population in the past, however, it is well-known that child prostitutes were available in Victorian London (as they are in Asia, etc today).

It is also an accepted fact that the majority of child sex abusers (indeed rapists in general) are known to the child and, very often related, this is as true now as it was in the past.

Ask any genealogist, most family trees throw up the fact that very often older daughter took over mother's role in all things and produced issue to prove it, presumably the local community did not know or did not disapprove enough to mete out rough justice. We can accept this as a pragmatic solution to a hand-to-mouth rural existance, and also presume that the close society around accepted it as such as the 'family' survived.

This is a dilemma that faces some young girls who are being interferred with en famille nowadays - if they tell the authorities then the whole family will explode apart and they will be to blame. The best they can expect is that mum will side with them, 'dad' will be taken away, the family will suffer stigma, the court case, poverty, maybe have to move, etc. The worst, mum will deny, dad will stay and the victim will enjoy the lovelessness of care homes and be separated from her parents and siblings perhaps forever.

Think it may be different when it comes to very young children - babies, toddlers, 6-11 year olds. There were probably men who preyed on these in the past, so many stories of 'lost babies', stolen children (often by gypsies, itinerants, etc). It would not be too far fetched to think that these were similar to what we have heard reported today. However, with better communications those people with such predilictions could become much more organised and wreak more havoc.

By and large I don't think things are much different today, keep an eye on your kids when they are little (for all sorts of reasons including car accidents, etc), sexual abuse is more likely to come from your friend, dad, brother, uncle, etc - if you don't feel they're OK don't let them babysit! If you get them to the age of 14 and their 20 year old teacher seduces them (or vice versa) complain about it by all means, because she really should have known better.

As a postscript I do think children have lost a lot of freedom, they don't play out like we used to do, whether that is from fear or because they're playing on computers, not sure, but their lives are much more constrained than mine was at that age and they're probably at a disadvantage when it comes to assessing people and situations because of it. It does seem a crying shame when the chances of something terrible happening are so small.

Back when my mother was growing up in the 1940s she was sexually molested by an uncle. She told her mother and was told not to tell anyone about it. The family made sure that the uncle wasn't left alone with any of the families children but nothing else was done. These things happened just the same then but attitudes were different and it wasn't talked about.

You hit it on the head with

'This is a dilemma that faces some young girls who are being interferred with en famille nowadays - if they tell the authorities then the whole family will explode apart and they will be to blame. The best they can expect is that mum will side with them, 'dad' will be taken away, the family will suffer stigma, the court case, poverty, maybe have to move, etc. The worst, mum will deny, dad will stay and the victim will enjoy the lovelessness of care homes and be separated from her parents and siblings perhaps forever.'

I didn't want my family broken up or to end up in care. Strangely enough being molested by your dad is one thing to deal with, being molested by a group of strangers whilst in care, is a whole thing more.

Which is why I never told, isn't it sad though that the only way to deal with these things to tear families apart or to send the child to live amongst strangers where they will be even more vulnerable.

thought this might be interesting for those in this convo:
It is from recently released secret UK files.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4230733.stm

half way down the page:
"The trial of 34-year-old widower Willie Greaves - convicted of murdering his young daughter Hilda by putting her on the fire - provoked outrage in the local press. On his conviction and sentence to death in July 1907 the Sheffield daily paper called his crime "a fiendish act"."

I think this sort of thing has always been happening. Previously though it was kept quiet due to a lack of media and for other selfish reasons.

As for the original question of whether the programme is showing child molestation, I don't think it is. 16 is the legal age, many of us are not ready for that at 16, some of us are. How do you legislate for the fact we all grow up at different rates?

This may annoy some people, but in conversations with both men and women, many have said that in hetero sex, where the woman is penetrated and the man is not, it is a bigger deal for the woman. Do any others have any thoughts on that?

‘where the woman is penetrated and man is not’

This is a good question. It’s my understanding that because sex is ‘intrusive’ to women, they are much more connected to it then men are. It is a very emotional experience for a woman. Conversely, men aren’t as emotionally tied to the experience as women are. Men are the ones doing the penetrating and have a completely different state of mind about sex. Not to say that men can't be emotionally connected to sex, because we can and are.

You also have to consider the consequences of sex. They are much different for the woman than they are for the man. The woman is the one who will have to carry the child. The woman is the one who historically suffers the social stigma.

Hi Bludrake

thats kinda what I thought only I realised I maybe biased being a woman and so wanted to hear what others thought.

Obviously with the pregnancy issue, it makes sense to protect girls more than boys from underage sex.

So, if sex is more emotional and intimate for women, is that a reason to protect them from underage sex as well?

Of course men and boys need understanding and protection when appropriate (aside from condoms), but perhaps they need it less then women?