h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Recently, actor John Rhys Davies (currently famous for being a Dwarf in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy) expressed his admiration for traditional western culture, and was then roundly criticized as being a racist. The BNP even took his words and used them in a piece of propoganda to promote their own ideals.

So my question to H2G2 is simple: Is it possible to be proud of being, for example, British without being

a) labelled as a raving nationalist
b) demeaning other cultures and creeds at the same time?

Yeah...
I'm proud of the cultural diversity in my nation.

Math

Im proud of all of what my country's done, just like the italians are proud of the romans and all they did.

Yes we did some pretty nasty stuff. We came up with concentration camps and the like, but still its a part of what makes me proud:
That we havent stuck to those things and that we've moved on from them, knowing that they were wrong.

As I said elsewhere, it is difficult to be British and proud - although as a woman at least I can shove blame onto the men who were in charge.

But I am often asked (usually round about St. Patrick's day) when the British saints day is, and what we do to celebrate. (well, I'm the only person I know who wears a rose on 23rd April - hoping that's the right day - but then, I always make sure it's a white one, and I wear it again for Yorkshire day too)

Generally they are surprised that we don't do anything. I live in a country that has, within living memory, lived through some appalling things. But they (rightly) celebrate their national day, with some pride about how they have got past that, and moved on.

Which makes me wonder: why aren't we Brits more proud of our nation?

Sort of an odd question, really.

Why should I be proud or ashamed of the achievements of a nation?

Noggin

Why not be proud?

Our nationality is part of who we are. It defines the language we speak (or, in the case of European nations, the languages), the choices we have about our politics, even our faith. It determines what we are taught in school, the people we are brought up to revere and, in some cases, the things we fear and revile.

So I'm interested in knowing why it's a good thing for the Irish to celebrate St.Patrick's Day but apparently not OK for the English to do something similar for St. George.

Or why it's OK for a stadium full of Mexican football supporters to drown out the national anthem of the USA with cries of "Osama! Osama!"(during a USA vs Canada international), but when the Americans display somepatriotism they are accused of being insensitive to the international situation and jingoism.

so really, the question is "can we be proud..." but "why can't others accept that we can be proud?" isn't it?

What does it really mean to be proud? I think I may be with the Nog on this. I can see how I might be proud or ashamed of what I personally have achieved or committed. If I had children, I could understand being proud or ashamed of them, because I would be directly responsible for providing them with a foundation. But it's hard to imagine why I might be proud about something over which I had absolutely no influence.

Well, I used to be in the Army. I'm proud of some of the humanitarian stuff we did, which is generally at the behest of the government/country.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". - Some old fart.

I dunno, I don't really see any reason to be proud of what I see as an accident of birth. It all smells like another excuse to get tribalistic to me.

I think it's fascinating though. I mean, if you look at the USA. Flags everywhere, pledges of allegience seemingly at the drop of a hat.
Now, I sometimes (depending on my mood) see that as overbearing nationalism and it drives me nearly beserk.

Other times, however, I see it in the spirit it is intended: it brings them together as a cohesive unit. An extension of family if you like.

But then, I remember how it is in England when people try to organise a St.George's day parade. St Pat = ok. St Andrew = ok, Kwanza, Eid, Chinese New Year ... all ok. (and I have no problem with any of them, the more the merrier as far as i'm concerned)

But no St George in case all the red & white flags upset someone? It's no wonder the kids now have no sense of pride - most of them couldn't pick out an English flag in a line up of one.

Which all makes me sound like a jackbooted nationalist, instead of the wishy-washy-lefty-socially-democratic-Guardian-reader that I really am.

Odd, eh?

I think there is a big thing amongst youth that many do want something to have pride in, but in my opinion its the older generation thats given up, mainly due to patriot extremists who believe there doing things for the good of the country (like the BNP).
Also, the whole political correctness thing always cause people to be cautious about being proud.

I don't think you sound like a jackbooted nationalist Sho. And I think you have every right to feel proud of the humanitarian things you did when you were in the army. That's you feeling proud of something you did and something you were an active part of -- doing something you believed in.

Maybe people only have a very vague idea of what it means to be proud of something. People feel territorial, they're attached to their culture and customs, their circle of friends and relatives. They feel protective towards things they're accustomed to and comfortable with and don't want strangers to first encroach on their territory and then start changing things and imposing alien ideas. That sounds very insular, I know, but it's just the way people are all over the planet - not just here in Britain. Does pride come into it though?

It does seem odd of the English to let the excuse for a party pass them by. I can't remember ever celebrating St George's day. Wouldn't know when it was, but then it's a Christian Saint day and most English people don't seem very interested in Christianity or any other religion.

Hmm... This is a tough one. I must say I agree with Shorn and the Nog, at least to some extent.

I've deleted and rewritten the following five-six times now, keep getting second thoughts... Bear with me.

Am I proud to be a Dane? Well, perhaps. Perhaps grateful is a better word. I was lucky enough to be born in a country where my ancestors have been kind enough to make some social and cultural progress that I'm largely pleased with. But this is nothing to be proud of, it's not something I've done. Likewise, there are a number of things in Danish history I'm less than happy with. But I'm not going around apologising for, say, Danish behaviour in the second World War, as it was not of my doing.
Far better to assume some responsibility for the society you live in today. I can claim some responsibility for, and therefore take pride in, eg. the Danish welfare system, but to do so, I must also take responsibility for the more negative aspects; our harsh immigration laws, our membership of the EU, etc. etc.

I believe there was a point to this, but it currently eludes me.


cheers,
~Bistro

"But then, I remember how it is in England when people try to organise a St.George's day parade. St Pat = ok. St Andrew = ok, Kwanza, Eid, Chinese New Year ... all ok. (and I have no problem with any of them, the more the merrier as far as i'm concerned)"

One thing I noticed on that theme is how racism isn't, so long as it's directed at the English. Example, England fans singing "stand up if you hate Turkey" at the England vs Turkey game = racism, the FA fined for racism, English "yobs" villainised in the papers.
Last night, Wales vs Scotland, both sets of fans singing "we hate England more than you do" = jolly good fun, Sky Sports reporter laughing.

So it looks as though the government, and even organised sports basically sees that being proud to be English is inherently racist.

It's the English (I'm one of them) who don't really celebrate their national identity (except at football matches). The Welsh, Scots, Irish and the Lloyalists and Republicans in Northern Ireland obviously do.

Maybe its because England hasn't been invaded and colonised since the Normans came in 1066, while Wales, Scotland, and Ireland were all placed under English colonial rule against their will, as a precursor to the British Empire that did the same.

National identity in Wales, Scotland and the Republicans in Ireland is probably tied in with historical resistance to the English.

There is a strong British identity in disputed colonies like Gibraltar and the Falklands/Malvinas.

That's a pretty good theory Combattant, it might help explain why the only identity the English are encouraged to have is British, as that was the seige mentality of the last war...

Just a thought.

Well, *I* wear a red rose on 23rd April. Have done so for about the last 10 years. Someone once asked if I was joining the Labour Party. This earned him a *severe* talking-to.

The Welsh are sheepshaggers, the Scots a bunch of whingers, the Irish are bogtrotters.

That feels *much* better.

(Salt is available from that big pile over there )

Hey! You can't talk about the Taffys Jocks and Paddies like that!

I wear a rose too, but sometimes it's not worth the hassle you get.

I took part in St. George's Day parades every year from the age of 7 to 19, no one ever gave me any grieve, no-one ever said a word about it being 'racist', or jingoistic. I don't know where you lot live, but every town and city around here has a parade every year. The various sections of the Scout and Guide movenemnts march, the air/sea/army cadets all march, and civilians line the streets waving flags. We march past the Mayor (well, Mayoress on several occassions), salute, then go to church, then march back. Perfectly normal.