A Conversation for Talking Point: 11 September, 2001 - One Year On
How Much Longer Can We Talk About This???
Boba42 Started conversation Sep 12, 2002
Alright people, this is just getting ridiculous! I understand that the events of last year's 9-11 were tragic. I understand that many people lost their loved ones. What I don't understand is how much more are we going to talk about this thing? It is just simply getting out of hand! Some people, just do not want to be reminded of what happened, and yet the media puts in perfect light for them. I am getting sick and tired of people mourning events that happened a year ago. Yes, it was tragic. Yes, it was sad. Yes it was horrible of those psychos to do that. But, godammit! Get over it people. There is nothing we can do to change the situation. What we should do, is instead of putting our energy into mourning, we should think of ways to prevent something like this from ever happening again.
How Much Longer Can We Talk About This???
Bodhisattva Posted Sep 12, 2002
Which means that you think there IS something that we can do to change the situation - we can create the conditions whereby no such thing will ever happen again.
Focussing on bringing social harmony, environmental peace and economic prosperity for all (which IS achievable) instead of ploughing billions more dollars into weapons etc would make the world an entirely different place.
Of paramount importance in making the world a better place is changing the hearts and minds of people. If everybody put others first the world would be the paradise that it has the potential to be.
Education is the main tool for achieving this - education about actions and consequences, education about developing principles and using them to guide decision-making, education about the context in which those decisions are made (ie. how the world works) etc.
Much of these discussions have been about sharing grief and discussing the reasons for September 11th.
Sharing grief is valuable because it helps to create empathy and to realise that at the deepest level, we are all the same. We all wish to be happy and to avoid suffering, and all human endeavour is directed towards those goals - either for ourselves and others. The problem is that all to often we fail to realise that caring for others is the only way to achieve true happiness for ourselves.
Sharing discussion of reasons for September 11th is important so that we can identify how to create conditions such that those reasons will no longer exist, thus avoiding potential future attacks and the associated suffering.
For example:
The suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of the Israeli administration is one possible reason for the attacks. If we get involved with War on Want's Palestine campaign we can contribute to bringing peace to that region.
Economic oppression by the US and its "allies" is another possible reason for the attack. If we get involved in the Jubilee Debt Campaign to write off the unpayable debts of the world's poorest countries then we can put an end to the 7 million child deaths which occur each year because of the debt. If we get involved in the Trade Justice Movement then we can bring fairness to world trade rules which at present are weighted against poor countries in the favour of the US et al.
Military oppression is another possible reason - certainly Osama BL was angerd by the presence of US troops on holy soil in Saudi Arabia. If we encourage our governments to direct spending to purposes of social justice rather than military expenditure then we can create the conditions for peace.
Ecological oppression is another possible reason - we can all help by writing to George Bush to encourage him to sign up to the Kyoto treaty, and write to Putin and the Chinese Chairman to thank them for their stances - thus encouraging world leaders to know that their citizens are behind them on the issue of Climate Change.
and so on.
How Much Longer Can We Talk About This???
Cheerful Dragon Posted Sep 12, 2002
Do you really think that anything will change the attitudes of fanatics? Because that's what Bin Laden's people are. They are convinced that Americans are evil incarnate, and that any action taken against America is justified. For them it's a holy war - some have even referred to it as a 'jihad'.
There are schools in Pakistan where boys are taught nothing but the Koran from a fundamentalist viewpoint. The boys have no opportunity to see the outside world and get a broader perspective. These schools are training grounds for more fanatics, and the only way to stop attacks like 9/11 would be to close them down. This, however, is impossible because the schools aren't breaking any laws.
Your attitudes are very much in keeping with your chosen nickname, Bodhisattva. But even if you are right about why the attacks took place, that doesn't justify them, and I don't think we'll see the problems going away any time soon. I am dubious about the benefit of 'getting involved' in various campaigns or writing to politicians. Yes, it would be a great idea to eliminate all those debts, and George Bush is an a**hole for not ratifying the Kyoto agreement. But experience shows that politicians have a tendency to go their own way, regardless of what the public says, especially in America. You need a lot of money to get elected President of the USA. A lot of that money comes from industry, and the last thing Bush wants to do is upset his backers!
How Much Longer Can We Talk About This???
Bodhisattva Posted Sep 12, 2002
"Do you really think that anything will change the attitudes of fanatics?"
There is always hope. Instant changes of hearts and minds do happen, and in theory everybody could experience such a change tomorrow. I agree that's a remote possibility, but there it is.
"They are convinced that Americans are evil incarnate, and that any action taken against America is justified."
If the USA performed global acts of altruism surely it would be impossible for them to remain convinced of that?
"Your attitudes are very much in keeping with your chosen nickname, Bodhisattva."
Thank you
"But even if you are right about why the attacks took place, that doesn't justify them"
A agree absolutely. I hope I didn't give the impression that I condone the attacks in any way - I don't. I was just seeeking to understand them to try and realise the direction we need to go in to achieve a lasting solution.
"I don't think we'll see the problems going away any time soon."
Agreed. But the journey of a thousand miles and all that...
"I am dubious about the benefit of 'getting involved' in various campaigns or writing to politicians."
Please be encouraged by this:
The issue of third world debt wasn't even on the agenda for rich countries five years ago. But the political pressure exerted by the Jubilee 2000 coalition (the predecessor of Jubilee Debt Campaign) was such that debt has featured prominently since then. The G7 countries have promised unilateral relief for those countries which make it through the HIPC process, the World Bank itself has acknowledged that HIPC is inadequate as it stands, in line with the evidence presented by Jubilee 2000, and in this year's G8 Summit a whole day was devoted to Africa (that achieved little, but at least it was there!) Poor countries such as Uganda have seen tangible benefits, with more educational facilities available for children thanks to the relief received so far. Much more needs to be done, but progress is being made.
The democratic system provides an incentive for politicians to listen to the views of the electorate in order to adopt policies which secure the favour of the electorate and thus those politicians' power. It has been suggested that a hand-written letter to a politician is taken to represent the views of 1,000 people. That makes it worth getting involved in campaigns, no?
I agree that power is bought in the US and that's a real problem. A fundamental flaw in the US and UK systems is that they operate first-past-the-post systems which are not democratic at all - they are majority dictatorships. But Bill Clinton was the first of the G8 leaders to promise 100% unilateral debt relief for poor countries - evidence that politicians do listen. Are you in the US? If so may I draw your attention to:
http://www.truemajority.org/
"George Bush is an a**hole for not ratifying the Kyoto agreement."
Ah yes. Evidence that politicians' promises should always be treated with skepticism - I believe this was the first instance of the US breaking a promise previously made to the international community. Nice one GW!
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