h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm always interested in what our youth [by which I mostly mean 16-21y/o] have to say about stuff. I guess it comes from me leaving high school at 16, going to college for a year before joining the Army. High schoolers fascinate me.

Today when I was coming home from the recruiters office and dinner, I was listening to Youth Radio on National Public Radio (NPR). What I heard was mostly kids saying that they were scared that this would lead to WWIII. Kids who were afraid of the draft (which we haven't used for 25 years). Therefore, they didn't want war. This strikes me as cowardice.

It's one thing to not want war for philosophical reasons, but to me it sounds like we have a couple of generations of wimps.

I wonder if this is because our military is so much less visible. Service members shed their uniform, as soon as their duty day is complete. We no longer have a draft so that the military represents a true cross-section of America. Can most people name someone that they know who is in the military?

I'm opposed to the draft. There are two quotes from Time Enough for Love by Robert Heinlein that come to mind: "No state has an inherent right to survive through conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has. Roman matrons used to say to their sons: 'Come back with your shield, or on it.' Later on, the custom declined. So did Rome." and "Those who refuse to support and defend the state have no right to claim the protection of that state."

We live in a rich free society. Have we come to the point where our decadent youth are too used to luxury, and they are not prepared to fight to maintain society?

Two Bit Trigger Pumping Moron
Natural laws have no pity.

Did it occur to you that by refusing to go to war they're fighting to maintain society, not just for their state but for their families, their friends, their species and their planet?

My grandfather was a commando in WWII, who fought in El Alamein amongst other places. My father was an anti-terrorist policeman during the 60s in Rhodesia during the civil war. Both came back to their families broken and twisted, turned to drink and beat their children to within an inch of their lives. They're now all dead, and their families left broken.

The war I'm fighting is within. It's a war between the fear my father put me through that I carry around every day, and the love I'm trying to find in myself to learn to conquer it. I think this is true of every human, and I'm sure as s*** going to war won't win it for me. And I don't have to get up at 4am and take orders from a sexually frustrated drill sergeant to do my bit for Queen and country.

Abuse tends to be passed down through families. I don't think you can blame public service for it, although it might be a stressor that will bring it out.

I'm a war veteran and a police officer. I've never beaten anyone.

Credit where it's due, Two Bit. Please don't think I don't have the deepest respect for anyone who can risk their life for the common good; I have been grateful for the efforts of the Police on many occasions, and I admire you in no small proportion for being able to return from a war and still have the courage to serve and protect in a country where, let's face it, the job must be a whole lot tougher.
I know these things are inherited, but it won't improve anything by taking arms.

I am very proud of my heritage for the most part; when Armistice Day approaches, I always remember how lucky I've been to live in an age when I have the choice. But choosing not to doesn't make me a coward, I've been fighting since I was six . As a police officer you must see this all the time. Almost everything is a stressor.

In Denmark, life vary somewhat from life in the US.

But as I see this, the whole point against those youths in the first posting, is that they do not want a war because they do not want to risk having to fight _themselves_!

I don't want a WWIII either, not because I'm afraid I may have to fight, but because I don't want anybody to fight in a war, much less a World War. And I don't think anybody does.

I'm a woman and have never been drafted. In Denmark, young men are drafted all though they get to pick a number and then most can just go home, no service for them, as there are far more men than needed. But if WWIII really came and Denmark had to fight; I'd pick up a gun - or in deed anything else needing to be picked up, such as supplies, nursing, food, shelter and so forth. (No women-wants-a-right-to-shoot-guns-too here, I'd do what I was most needed to do!)

I think Two Bit - et.c. is right, those kids who said that were cowards. They wanted the right thing but for the wrong reasons.

Just a thought from an - at this point - pretty safe Dane.

-Kimoto

maby they are cowerds but another point, would the milatry want people like that. I mean before I left the uk I was listaning to a phone in aout binging back nashinal service toput respect in to the kids becase (And yes this is a major genroliseation) the kids of today are a generation of thugs and vandles. a sargent I think (well some mid ranking officer any way) said that the miltery in generl wouldend want them becase really he diddent think they could be trusted and anyway you would be teaching hulagans how to fight wich of corse is a good thing isnt it.

and it is simaly with the people who are cowerds, now I am not stupid enough to think that solders arnt at least a little bit scerd when they go in to battle but you have to trust eachother and a groupe of people who might freeze up and do nothing is a bit of a liabilaty in a battle, war wahtever really isnt it?

I don't think it's a case of being cowardly, I think it's quite normal to be scared of war! When I was a teenager I was terrified there was going to be a Nuclear War, and really believed I wouldn't live to see my twenties.

Now I'm in my thirties, I'm still scared of war. I also disagree with war. I think if in a so-called 'civilized' society we can't find a better way of dealing with our differences there must be something v. wrong with us. But (sigh) I guess that makes me a coward too.

BTW, my Great-Uncle was a conscientious objecter in WW1. That meant that, even though there was conscription here in the UK, he refused to join up. Instead he drove ambulances at the front, putting himself in incredible danger. Was he a coward?

Jude

sign me up as a coward (and a youth). War is stupid and killing people (*any* people) is wrong.

Also, I know plenty of "old" (30-40) people who are cowardly, afraid of war and would not fight. They're a bit more articulate in saying why they're morally opposed to war, but they're still, by your definition, cowardly.

Jude,

I have to say that I have always thought that people who were conscientious objecters during both world wars hade to be extremely brave. Being a Conchei was not the easy option as it *usually* lead to you being rejected by society as a coward. I have a lot of respect for those who refuse to fight for the right reasons, but not those who are genuine cowards. I'm not entirely sure that I want to fight in this 'WWIII' should it to come to that, but I'm prepared to *fight* for what I believe in. I beleive in truth, justice etc., but this 'war' is being started for all the wrong reasons in my opinion.

Bambi

Back in my high school and college days, I was against war for any reason. Across the board. Didn't matter why people were fighting.

Now I'm in my 30's. I still think it would be wonderful if every single person, and every single nation, would destroy their weapons, and we would all invest our efforts in peace and prosperity. Fear and hunger would be at an end. The children of the world would finally be safe.

However, in my 30's, it seems painfully obvious that it's not going to happen. And as a certified, commissioned police officer, I've come to understand that as long as there is fighting, you must be willing to stand up for yourself. Because when fighting turns lethal, you are going to die. Personally, I choose to die standing on my feet, not bent over. I've become a strong believer in peace through superior firepower.

Should the US attack Afghanistan? Is Osama the root of all evil? Has our government gone berzerk in its bloodlust? I have no idea. I only hope that this can all be resolved without more shedding of innocent blood. And I hope that the youth of America prove themselves brave enough to fulfill the mission that will be thrust upon them, whether that mission is waging war, or the even more difficult prospect of waging peace.

It's not all cowerdice with our youth. They have never know a war except the Gulf War which I don't know counts as a war or police action. I have one brother who is in the Navy, another who is in the Army. My best friend is a marine and my father was a marine along with my uncle. I will have to agree that war changes people and most times not for the good. Both my father and uncle came home very broken. Many people my age have grown up knowing someone in thier family who was in a war and they can see how they are now and hear about hopw they were then. I do agree that a lot of the younger people these days need to be put into boot camp and learn some respect and have some direction. Just my own 2 cents sorry for the rant.

Fear is not the same as cowardice. I've felt real gut twisting fear twice in my life that I can recall (I have a really bad memory): once during the war and once during the president's speech to the joint session of Congress. It really hit home that we were going to war. However, I carry on. I still think we're going a long the right course. I will still enlist.

I don't think being a conscientious objector makes you a coward. Ambulance drivers and medics are some of the bravest people you'll ever see. Conscientious objectors who don't serve are should probably be suspected as cowards until proven otherwise.

I don't think the military would be better off with some of these kids in the service. I prefer a volunteer military, and I'm very much opposed to the draft. I just wish we had more youth who are willing to stand up when their nation is in jeopardy. I'd like to think see more people sign up for the reserves or the National Guard.

Incidentally, I've heard some people say that they'd be proud to serve if they were drafted or if they were asked. I think it's pretty clear that we need folks to serve. It takes several months to train someone to serve in any branch of the military. Waiting for the enemy to be at your door is too late.

Two Bit Trigger Pumping Moron

I suppose it could be argues that they're already here.

I didn't mean for the kids to actually go into the service unless they wanted to after thier training. I meant it might help straighten out many of the problems we have in our societies. I have the most respect for anyone who has, is and wants to serve in the military. If there weren't conciencious *sp?* objectors many more people would have died because there were not enough ambulance drivers, medics, etc.

I think we are heading in the right direction by taking our time and looking at all options, I have a few friends who have already said they will enlist. I just hope everyone comes home safe and with all thier marbles.

I sort of agree. There are many kids these days who have nothing in their lives and don't give a damn about the rest of the world. It's true many of these are disaffected kids from a 'life on the dole' or working class background. They have little or no respect for the world as a whole and feel that the rest of us owe them a living. A couple of years national service would probably do these kids a lot of good. It's true, many would leave as soon as they could, but some would find it to their liking. Those that left would have grown up a lot and hopefully would instil a sense of resposibility into their kids should they have any. People with a real genuine career path / job planned, could be exempted on the condition that should they drop out before they are, say 30, they would still have to do it. This would of course be applicable to both males and females, though you do have a potential problem with single parents. I don't know how you prevent people becoming pregenant in order to 'dodge the draft'. I appreciate that these are not necesarily the sort of people that the armed services want, but it would probably improve the intake to the next stage. Funding would of course have to be increased, but since there would be less spent on welfare, this would be a good thing. All in all you have a lot of people who have a purpose in life and more self respect, at the same time as improving the armed services etc. (there would then be more vacancies for officers and training personel too). I actually know little about the armed forces, but I do know that some of the trouble makers that I was at school with have improved beyond recognition after a spell in the Army.

What do you think (Trigg in particular, but anyone else with an opinion too...)?

Bambi

on paper (as it where) it sounds good, but the problem is that allot of these kids, cannot really be trusted, or so it seems. It was as I said above, when I was listaning to a phone in one oficer said that they wouldent ewant these people becase it seems that they could not be relied upon. and you really need that when youare in the army.
The other thing is that some of these people will not change, and if that happens you will have a generation of ferly fit crminals who know how to fight, hide, and all the other things that happen with the basic atraining (thats right they will have very shiney boots ) the point is that is it reallly a good idea to ptenchally traine crimanls?
that is a problem with most of the forms of natinal service.

>>There are many kids these days who have nothing in their lives and don't give a damn about the rest of the world<<

I had to interview someone who was around in the sixties for my uni course on Saturday. I did my uncle, who served in Vietnam. He came across, to me, as feeling like he had lost part of his youth by going over there. He saw many others ("mainly americans") lose *their* lives to drugs in Vietnam. He said that he'd rather he, as a 51 year old, who "has already had his time" to go over to Afghanistan to be used as "gun fodder" rather than send the young people who haven't had a chance to experience life yet.

That's courage. I'm proud to know him. The way a lot of people around me are acting as if its somehow "up to" the youth, and that young people should be the ones to go and have their lives f****ed up. Like its right for old politicians to use young, expendable people. It is very much coming across as if the older citizens, and older (of course) politicians don't give a damn about the kids of their own bloody country let alone the world.

It's true - unlike certain other countries we have very few youths who are willing to risk their lives to kill people they've never met before. For some reason I don't feel terribly upset by that...

RANT with heavy sarcasm...
Yay Lucinda.
Why is it cowardice to not want to be involved in something which is not attributable to you or your actions? But then I have a pretty odd view of things- you may have seen me say how I don't love my country. Why should I? It's just a place. I don't see the need to be patriotic in order to be a decent person. (This seemed to upset several people, and I was asked if I meant I was 'ashamed' of my nationality. No, just indifferent.)
Also, I can't see how boot camp etc. would instil respect. In someone like me (who's quite respectful where it's due) it would foster resentment- being pushed beyond my physical limitations for no good reason that I can see, being griped at by 'superiors', unquestionably swallowing bilge disguised as 'national pride' and being forced to possibly sacrifice my life etc. for something I see as unjust and irrelevent? Hmm... blind obedience, that's the way.
(Oh, and please don't bring in issues of 'class', whatever is meant by that. I'm 'working class', as based on parental occupation, and if being the offspring of a skilled manual labourer makes me a less valid individual, then shoot me at dawn.)
You may keep national service thanks- but then the army wouldn't want a spineless, pathetic sponge like me, would they?

The advantage to a draft, is that it catches the really bright kids who normally wouldn't consider military service. It also gets people from all walks of life, so that the military is more closely tied to the nation as a whole, and vice versa.

On the other hand, we're already having a problem with our volunteer military. Among other things, there&#8217;s significant gang problem. When I was recruiting on the side, I wouldn't even talk to anyone who was in high school.

In some ways, I'd prefer an army that was a litttle older, maybe around 25. When you're young, you have more endurance, but I value maturity and life experience more.

The problems with our youth cut across class. A lot of our gang problem is in a series gated communities with million dollar homes.

I don't like the draft. I chose to serve, and I will serve again. I think a free nation, should be defended by volunteers. If we're so sorry that we can't do that, then the nation should be wiped from the face of the Earth.

We don't have the money to run the entire youthful population of the US through the military for two years. We used to draft on a lottery system.

If there were to be a draft, I don't think there should be any exceptions. If you're number comes up, you can finish your term in school, give birth, or use one month to work out your personal life, and then report. If someone has a definite career path, then they're probably high quality serious minded people that we really need.

Mandragora Scrymidden,

While you may not see it, basic training is necessary. It trains people to obey orders and deal with stress. It also helps prepare you psychologically for combat. Without that preparation, the soldiers would panic and be slaughtered. There is still an element of panic that takes place when a unit is blooded for the first time, but it's effects are greatly reduced.

At the end of it all, you come out proud. Not that you've done something that no one else can do, but proud that you've done what few choose to do. It's tough, and graduates have a right to be proud that they survived it, and came out better than they went in.

If their were to be a draft then it had better have a get-out option for pacifists to do some alternative form of community service in its place. Unless you want to *really* put the clock back...