h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

ME@SF

If there is one thing we "agreed" upon way above, its that the US govt is one major terror act. They have taken it upon themselves to define who a terrorist is and apportion who should be supported. Woe unto you if you raise a voice of reason at this time.

LOOn, your realism at this stage seems unwanted. Its tough to keep down reality at a time when minds want to be massaged with sympathy. But reality is really the best medicine at this stage.

Someone (I forget who) appealed for us to forget the past and talk about NOW. The truth is thousands have lost their lives in a mindless but very well planned operation. Someone did it and the govt in the US would like us to believe it was OBL in his cave. With all due respect, is the US security machinery so botched up that a cave-man could do thid and all they have is a phone call saying "We did it"

And the govt's response? To put the whole world in "war" mode. Against one cave man? Super power u said?

Colin Powell I believe made a statement that with us or against us was for the nations harboring terrorist.

You have nothing to fear if you aren't harboring terrorists.

As far as saying that I advocate baby killing and women killing....you disgust me. How dare you write such drivel!

I can't think of a more stupid statement than "Perium supports all baby killers and governments who do so."

Want to call my government terrorist? Fine. Your entitled to your own opinion. It is increasingly obvious that your mind is made up to hate my country. Where are you from? It's only fair that the tables turn a little. Surely your hands are no less pure than my own. Particularly when you riducule me on the one hand for wanting to go after a terrorist and then on the other hand want to shoot snipers in the balls. Who is the barbarian here?

Remove the plank from your eye before trying to remove the mote from my own.

Aaaaaah Perium

Thine words are harsh my boy (lass?). You missed the point completely! But moderation snapped it up too quick for u to read it I bet! Here is the thread of my thought:
You said your President has sworn to protect the lives of the citizens. Thats fine. And that the order to drop the bombs on Japan were in order because of this swearing. So far so good.
ME@SF (hope I got that right) has a problem with colonisation and want to fight the colonisers. If your thoughts as I have understood them up there stand true, then both the US President and this "decoloniser" have duties to protect their fatherland, right? If you support the action of your presdient protecting the US, why should you not support ME@wherever protecting his country? The principle is the same is it not? So why does one become a terrorist and the other the leader of the "free" world?

As for relating you to some child killers, Sir/Madam, that was and still is entirely in your mind. Let the moderators post it again and the truth shall set us free!

So am a babarian now am i? Coz of shooting a few choice points? While Dubya (swearing and all) is the one with record of legal "executions" but of course he is your president and he swore, so thats ok.

Oh by the way, am in Norway! Clean hands eh?

Ahmed

You keep saying you are in Norway. Where did you grow up orginally?

We're sounding a little sanctimonious Ahmed! Since you seem to have all the facts and perspective, what actions should be taken in light of this tragedy?

This post has been removed.

"All things in moderation"!!!!LOL

I can't track the conversation for the moderated postings! Somebody needs to get a grip and lighten up just a bit!


Anyone care to hear my definition of the difference between terrorism and an act of war?...no, didn't think so. It hasn't stopped anybody else, yet...and I'm a bit known for blundering in....so here goes.


If a nations government attacks you, by surprise or not, its' an act of war. If a small group inside a nation attacks yours....thats' terrorism.

You can easily retaliate against an act of war...attack that country. Terrorists, on the other hand, pose a bit of a problem. If they are located in an otherwise friendly nation.....how do you attack them?

Simple example. We are sure we have terrorists residing in Miami, Florida.....do we bomb Miami? "Dubyas'" brother might not appreciate that much!

NM

ahmed, I see you are still trolling. [must be rough living off the fruits of america while while condeming it out of the other side of your face]

One word of advice do not stop walking suddenly or LOOnys nose will go straight up your backside.

Wow...this place has certainly heated up.

Actually...I think everyone here has either argued themselves into or out of a corner.

Seems as though its' calmed considerably. Not surprising.....theres' only so much "vitriol" a human can produce!

NM

I'm trying to organize my thoughts, so bear with me if I get a little fuzzy. Ahmed, you asked if any still thought that the bombings were the work of a madman, based ,I believe, on the past action of our own government.

Well, yes. It was the work of a madman. Killing innocent people is never excusable, not for them, not for us.

General Rambling now...

I disagree that our government "changes" completely every four years. Yes, if there is a party switch, there is a general principle switch, but often it seems that the incoming government is stuck trying to wade through whatever s*** the outgoing government stirred up.

Except, of course, for his majesty George W. "What-an-everloving-S***head" Bush, who galloped all over the globe and just announced that he had no intention of either supporting previously worked out treaties or other agreements.

So, in comes the new gov. but old issues still have to be worked out. I hate that this tragedy happened, but it did serve the purpose of forcing that megalomaniac to actually go hat in hand to other nations instead of sh****** all over them. Perhaps he'll come to realize that we are part of a global community and not just his corporate sandbox. It is past time for him to crawl out of his mired swamp, grow some lungs, and act like a land mammal.

I read an article once that discussed some of Colin Powell's actions in (I think - I'm working from a faulty memory here) South America. He was considered something akin to a butcher there.

I am glad and relieved that he is now pushing for a non-warlike solution to this issue, and I hope to god he succeeds because no way in hell do I want my government to be bombing Afganistan.

I've also heard that another one of our Reagan-men is considered a war criminal in a South American country. If that is true, I say hand him over for trial.

I also condemn my own country's refusal to agree to the formation of a world court. I believe that there should be a forum for addressing crimes against nations by other nations, and I believe that the court should have the power they need to enforce their judgement.

That said, nothing...no act of a few men in any government...excuses acts of staggering violence against innocent civilians. If my government does something heinous, then I want them brought up before the UN, kicked out if they've done things bad enough, Sanctions against the US if necessary, but never, ever, ever the killing of innocents.

I am vocal and loud about my aversion to war with Afganistan. I've been called Crazy, Unpatriotic, a Traitor, I've been asked how I dare question my leaders in times like these and I've been told that "those people" deserve to die for supporting Bin Laden.

I've also seen Muslim/Arab Americans being escorted by Non Muslim/Arab Americans to protect them from hate crimes. I've seen sit-ins to protest violence against Arabs and the middle east. I've seen unprecedented interest in actually learning what Islam is, and I've seen more and more anti-war posters going up.

The Afgans are not the sum total of a few wicked men armed with Kalishnakovs and $300 million dollar bank accounts and Americans are not the sum total of a group of politicians who act like the Globe is their own personal game of RISK.

"Actually...I think everyone here has either argued themselves into or out of a corner."

*Laugh* As I've just done no doubt. I just hope I can get into my asbestos suit before the flames begin.

...a quotation from Rudyard Kipling, the poet of patriotism, of purpose, of great dignity at a time of loss.

When Kipling wrote those words, 100 years ago, the British Empire had been humbled in South Africa by a small group of Boer fighters who hated the overweening presence of Queen Victoria's realm. They were scruffy, hairy-faced, profoundly religious in their battle against Anglo-Saxon materialism and extremely hard to find and destroy. It took no less than 300,000 men from Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand to overwhelm the Afrikaaner resistance in a three-year campaign.

British military forces were not equipped for guerrilla warfare. Intelligence was lacking. Stock markets swooned. Foreign states expressed regret but privately enjoyed the British discomfiture. The empire was compelled to rethink its strategy, its priorities, its trade-offs and its future. It was badly shaken.

Sound familiar?

Yes Looney - we learned a lot, the Boers got control and eventually created aparthied. Where does that get us?

Beth

I see no similarities, the Boers fought to protect their land, the terrorists attacked to kill innocent people.

As soon as New Zealand refused to play rugby against South Africa (the national game in both countries), it then became a matter of when, not if, Mr Mandela would lead the country out of the wilderness.

I wonder what sport Ossie Bin Liner plays?

Wow! It sure has become hot. I have my bucket and here I go with it, an ember or two should die off. I hope someone else follows me pronto with another bucket (of water LOOn!)

I will start with Listener. I am Norwegian, but that matters precious little these days. More so for me. I grew up in three different continents including Charlotte in North Carolina, Nairobi in Kenya and Hong Kong (in China??). Of course now am in Europe. How that helps you I have not the foggiest.

Back to this thread. Let me apologise unreservedly to anyone and everyone I may have offended. It was not, and still is not my intention to offend. Indeed if it were up to me I would have BBC pay for us to have a two day meeting on the island of Smøla just off the coast of Norway. Its quiet and we shall not disturb others if we should start shouting. What am about to say, is also not designed to offend, but rather to educate both myself and you who reads it. Remember that we all have different ways of looking at things and do not share past experiences which eventually colour our arguments even if it be a little. To summarise this paragraph, I am a Muslim and proud of it. I follow the Islam of the prophets as spelt out in the Holy Quran, and not the minds of suicidal characters. (Pauses to drink some apple juice)

To Researcher 185436, I am not self-righteous. If I appeared so, I would be glad to clear that confusion for you. Just point out a direct question and I shall oblige. You ask where do we go from here? That depends on where one is standing. From where I am, I would advocate for a thorough investigation with airtight proof and then go after those who planned and executed Sept 11. Wholesale bombing of countries without any serious evidence hurts the innocent and having worked in war-torn countries for the past 6 years, I assure you that the bitterness of an innocent victim is hard to reverse. It is these normal looking, smiling and very helpful individuals who turn round and become monsters in a split second. I could give u many stories from Rwanda, and trust me, you would believe only about 15%. But they are all true, sadly and horribly cruelly true.

Loki, I have not lived off the fruits of America. I live by the grace of my God. No country in this world will ever really be self sufficient in a broad sense. i BUY what i eat and live off. Its not charity and certainly it is NOT American. We trade, we meet and exchange; we make alliances,and shift alliances. The US indeed survives because the rest are there to either consume what they have produced, or provide their own products in some way. "Sanctimonious" 185436 called me. Watch it LOKI, someone may call u that!

Maybe its Fairly Strange who looked in the right direction. We have argued ourselves into some rather tight corners. When I started off, I had intended to debate, not to argue. And in any debate, we present our points in an organised manner and try and win our "opponents" over with facts and good presentation. Few have done this. We come with pre-conceived ideas and try and ram them down everyone's throat. I have done that a coulpe of times and I must apologise. I will steer clear off that patch cabbages now. Let us have a lively and informative debate.

Charlotte seems to have appreciated my point above. I would lend her (what the heck, give it all) my suport for standing up for what to me is an obvious truth. Punishment should always go to the deserving. If you harm someone who is innocent, you have just won another enemy. You are only as safe as your neighbour they say. But my statement about "...was this planned by a madman..." has been taken out of context. Maybe I didnt explain it well. I must have been too busy lambasting someone. What I meant is this: that this took meticulous planning and the folks doing it were not in any way impaired mentally. Whether they were emotionally disturbed is another matter and madness has more to do with mental alacrity than emotional shortchange. They were evil (still are I believe) but mad? I doubt. The amount of brain power that was required was plenty. Oh, and they were too lucky, sometimes I wonder why. Can four sets of persons be this lucky at the same hour more or less? I wonder. Not mad people, but very evil people.

Ah! To my friend LOOn who has been dustbinned with me. Your sense of humour has not really been grasped here. I suggest you modify it depending on the crowd. Down adder, I mean under, it may be OK but here? Citizens of the US dont seem ti like it. I smile a little myself, and i try not to laugh.

So there, lets debate forwards and not throw bricks at each other.

NB: Something really creepy - In capitals type Q33 NY (flight number of one hijacked plane) in word, then enlarge to 26+ for clarity. Convert them to Wingdings (not Wingdings 2 or 3, just plain wingdings)
Creepy, yes?

Peace

Charlotte....You go right on expressing your opinions. Last time I heard, thats' one of the basic cornerstones of our culture here. Those who would deny you your right to say your piece are the traitors, not you.

Sappy old US line, but it should be burned into the minds of all of us in the "States"; especially at this time...."I may not agree with your opinion, but I will fight to the death for your right to express it".

This will not be solved with one mans' opinion. The more ideas and avenues that are tossed around, the better the final outcome will be.

Its' much like baking. Just flour and water will get you unleavened bread...add enough ingredients to the mix and its' a wedding cake. Either one will feed you, but the cake tastes much better.

Ahmed (The lone defender!)...thanks for the water! I think we could all use a little!

And LOOny....no matter what Ahmed says, your wit and wisdom are not lost on all of us from the US. Monsy and I enjoy watching......and I make a mistake now and then of trying to "foil" with you. Monsy reminds me everytime that I'm making a mistake. Darn women....must they be right ALL the time!?

NM

LOL!

Women are always right. Make no mistake. Our opinions are just that... opinions! But you know women are the best thing God created, I swear to that. Not because I am a man but more because I have a mother.
But I digress...

A friend of mine writes: "Brutality (the use of power to degrade and to wound) is the essence of social misery. And increasing the acceptability of brutality, whether through self-indulgence, evasion, or outright lie, is criminal. I can think of no human reality which it is necessary to rise above other than brutality. I can think of no human misery -- personal, political, economic -- to which it is not central."

You, sir, have a wise friend!

A quick aside to your point on women.....

"What, Sir, would the people of the earth be without woman? They would be scarce, sir, almighty scarce."
-Mark Twain(Samuel Clemens) Speech, 1/11/1868

NM