h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

the thing is they have already linked it to Bin Laden, 2 of the hijackers are from the United Arab Emrates, they have identified the names of 2 others and the FBI has seized one of their cars and recieved 700 other leads.

Quite remarkable for it being one day after the attack, isn't it?

I guess that's what happens if you point 9 different agencies at it; you will get results

Without speculating on the identity of the mastermind(s)
of this tragedy, I would nevertheless conclude that the terrorist
act is itself a sign of someone who is not normal. Consider:

--Total lack of concern for, or empathy with, the safety/happiness
of fellow human beings. By comparison, most people care about
others on some level. Even if you didn't like a political figure's
politics/policies, you might still sympathize with his Alzheimer's,
or his wife's angst in caring for him.

--An extreme obsession with getting noticed, no matter what the
cost. Most of the rest of us stop pushing the edge of the envelope
at some point because of modesty, prudence, or the pleas of
our loved ones/friends. Most of us can be argued away from
our self-destructive plans, but this mastermind cannot.

The vast majority of people on the planet are basically decent
people. The mastermind we are talking about is not on of them.

I posted this elsewhere, but....

As an American.....

I will start slow here so that everyone will know where I am coming from.

I am not, AM NOT, an anti-muslim. Islam is not about this kind of behavior any more than Christianity. I am not even convinced it has any muslim involvement at all. But, Islam is a ready target because of so much violence they have done under the name of Jihad,(Christians remember the term Crusade before you're anger gets stirred), in addition to the cell phone calls from the planes where arabic was reportedly heard in the background. I feel for peace loving moslems, the hour is as dark for you as it was for the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. Have patience with us if it is possible, there is a lot of pain manifested in anger across this nation today. Beware, be careful, be faithful. Likewise I challenge Christians the same. Step up to the plate people.

That being said...the person or person's responsible need to be found. I will not condone a blind punishment of those who are not responsible for this act of atrosity and open declaration of war against unarmed, peaceful, civilians. Those that have done this will be found and punished. Do not doubt it for a moment.

I for one am outraged at the rhetoric going around about violence trading with violence etc. Tossing America in this horrible hour as if we are some kind of dim witted giant who will just go stomping about until our rage ends. How foolish must we really be in your eyes? Are we to just roll over and not do anything about this? Wouldn't that course of action invite more violence to our citizens? Get serious people. An attack has been done on our people. Our nation security is threatened. We will respond. We will defend our population with direct and overwhelming force. Do not think that we will let the parties responsible get away without payment in kind.

Those who have done this should be afraid, should have had the forethought to know that this was coming, and expect it. Our response will be focused and terrible. Count on it.

Just heard on the news that the USA is planning to invoke Articl5 of the Nato treaty.

Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of
them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack
against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an
armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of
individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of
the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in
concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems
necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and
maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof
shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such
measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken
the measures necessary to restore and maintain international
peace and security (1).

the new is reporting two of the people came in from canada to portland, maine then down to boston, they know this because there luggage didn't make it out of portland untill after flt 11 left boston. at least one drove up from virgina parked his car at logan and snuck on the plane. speculation about at least one driving up from florida. logan airport will be closed indefinatly, until some changes are made, even when they reopen they will not be allowing mail or cargo, i ship cargo for a job so this i know as fact. the hijacker got on the planes on the tarmac and just walked onto the plane they hid the knives in shaving kit.

that all i know of now, sorry about not using capital letters but i can't be bothered today

i don't know much about it but this seemed the right place 2 wonder how anyone could do such a thing. how, even if the hate america, the could kill so many people. it also disturbes me 2 see those pictures of the people celebrating about it in one of the middle eastern countries. How can they be so heartless! just the thought of the familys makes me feel useless and angry. And then the thought of the people trapped in the airpockets at the base of the tower. And, the people who trew themselves out of the building before it collapsed. The amount of fear in their minds, to actualy jump out of the tallest building in the world must just be astronomical.
sorry if this doesn't make sence but as you can understand i am upset and shocked by the current events and so i find it hard to think straight.
Lord Preston OMFC

How can anybody expect America to just stand by and to not react?

Make no mistake: this did not just happen to America 'the Horrible', the way some people seem to think.

This is a terrible declaration of war against the entire free world.

That means you, too.

I live in the UK & I see what happened as an attack on 'civil' society every-where but I think there is an argument for not overreacting, forgiving and moving on to deal with the root causes terrorism. That is not to say the criminal justice system should not be allowed to do its stuff, but there is a difference between a fair trial & an elected official deciding guilt & using cruise missiles as a means of retribution.

Speaking of trials and retribution: the passengers aboard those planes and the innocents in those offices were tried, convicted, and executed. Their charge? Being Americans, the definition of which depends on your sympathies. Was it a fair trial? No. Ironically the people responsible for this atrocity, once caught, will have the opportunity to be tried in one of the fairest legal systems in the world: the American justice system. Too bad their victims did not have that same opportunity.

I just hope that they do find the real perpetrators behind this mass murder, and deal with them appropriately. Anything more or less would be an insult.

Is it known yet whether everyone on those planes was American? Besides the hijackers, I mean. People from many nations come to New York to work and play; striking at a civilian target like the Trade Center strikes at anyone from anywhere who has ever set foot in New York City.
Striking at "America the Bad" is a wasted effort, as the value judgement cannot be changed by blowing things up. If this had been a strike solely at military targets I would understand better, but still dislike it.
Peace (the way I sign all my posts)
Stephen

Going back to post 183.

Bin Laden was indeed on the same side as the US once. He was a supporter and later a leader of a rebel group in Afghanistan during their war with the Russians in the 1980's. During this war, as we all recall, the US helped arm the rebels. Funny old world....

It is the *World* Trade Center ... people from all over the world work there. People from all over the world visit there. It's not just Americans, it's human beings from everywhere. And this has affected people from all over the world, because it brought home the fact that this could have been done anywhere, and our lives are so very fragile. We should cherish every day, and let those we love know how much we love them. And pray for peace. Always pray for peace.

I don't like the rhetoric that this was an attack on 'freedom' and 'democracy'. I don't like the rhetoric that this is a war of 'good' verses 'evil'. The attack was a political act. I'm not saying that it was in any way justified, but the WTO buildings, the Pentagon and Camp David are political symbols, not just places full of civilians.

There seems to be a call for the 'free' countries to join together against the barbarianism that obviously exists everywhere else. We are not 'enlightened' countries full of high morals, and it is a mistake to think that these acts somehow make America 'the good'.

The ante is being upped and the message seems to be that this is a war against the 'non-civilised', 'non-democratic' world.

Peace,

Frankie

Peace

I disagree. That act was the very definition of pure evil. To be a moral relativist this day is not to be on the side of the angels.

I think most people in the world, 'free', 'enlightened', or whatever, but just 'world' will do, are fed up with evil acts of terror and violence masquerading as political acts.

I don't think very many people, Americans or non-Americans, believe acts of terror committed anywhere make America, or any other country, 'the good'

A flag is a 'political' symbol. A human being is not.

Earlier in this thread someone made the very good point that the World Trade Center is not just a US entity, but is very much a global center.

No one is saying that the West is pure, without fault. We are very much aware of our failings, as evidenced by our justice systems and governments. Just try saying many of the things we say here on h2g2, in some of the so-called 'non-civilised', 'non-democratic' countries...

The message is not, as I read it, war against the less 'enlightened' nations. The war is against international, criminal terrorism and murder, and it is a war that we are being forced into, globally, by the terrorists.

Peace begins here

It definitely doesn't - by planning to, putting it frankly, kill in response to killing, our countries are showing no more humanity than the perpetrators of this atrocity. The only thing that's different is that there's a piece of paper that says they can't do what they did, and also that when NATO retaliates, it is expected that they will do their best to minimise civilian casualties.

Although, to be honest, I find it hard to believe that someone who could plan such an attack on the USA considers US civilians to be civilians - they probably consider them to be instruments of an oppressive regime, and so welcome their deaths.

I am not trying to justify what the terrorists did. Just let's not stoop to their level in order to exact some idea of retribution. That can never be paid. Our efforts should be bent to stopping such a thing happening again. First, finding and removing those responsible (ideally I'd want to imprison them, but I guess it's inevitable they're going to get blown up by a cruise missile, or shot). Secondly, making sure that the reasons those responsible had for doing it don't come up again. I know of the policy of not negotiating with terrorists, but there is a reason for what has been done and if the USA and the other countries of the free world don't look at what they're doing that causes people to do these things, they're just going to happen again.

We need to look not just at retribution, but also at prevention of future atrocities. We've already seen that at least some of those on the side of the terrorists are willing to die for their cause. Threat of deadly force is not going to stop people like that, because they won't consider it to be a particular problem.

You are out of your mind if you think a dealdy, direct, focused response is not required. If you think that you can defend against this kind of Terrorism with any kind of...belay that, perfect results you are crazy. ANY loss of life do to Terrorism(don't even get me started on symbols being political and somehow justified...murder is murder people) is too much.

The only course of action to protect our people is to make the threat of action so terrible that this kind of war is not even considered. That NATO stands behind us (because it bloody well could have been any of them) in this hour. That the Terrorists have a moment of truth in which they realize that they've stirred up a bees nest of the INTERNATIONAL community (arab states included) against them. The WORLD should not stand aside and make like this will just go away. We can't just sit here and say, wow, good shot we were totally unprepared for that. How could you prepare for this!

No, ladies and gentleman, that is a foolish course of action that only gets more people killed. Justice will have to be served here, and it will be. Count on that!

Again let me re-iterate...

Threat of deadly force will not turn them away of that you may be right. Threat of International Force, even their own Arab brothers and sisters is what needs to happen.