h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Noggin,

<>

The fight seems to now be one that is going to go on forever. I don't hold out hopes that any sort of negotiations with fanatics is going to bear any fruit - do you? Do you honestly?

<>

The perpetrators are scum. They are no longer human. They forfeited all human rights by their totally inhuman actions.

You talk to them. I want them dead.

az

HS. This very inexpert person, on the basis of the evidence presented on the radio, has formed the view that it points to collaboration between Eta and Al Qaeda. I wonder what you and your OH think about that possibility.

I would have thought that it might be worth some effort to work on detecting evidence of communication between them. I have long taken the view that the more covert ways of doing things, both research and action, beat the more obvious brute-force methods. By definition, we aren't going to know the extent of that and, even less, its nature. I suspect though that some of my intelligent guesses might be close to the truth and, presumably, those of your OH far more so.

toxx

This seems to have had an effect that whoever did it will not appreciate. The people of the affluent parts or Europe, in many ways made cynical and tired by their history, are being pushed towards a zealous vitality, willing to fight. I think that this attack so close to home for so many people may turn out to be a far more important turning point than the attacks on the World Trade Centre.

I worry about what may happen to civil liberties, but I still feel that

I worry about what may happen to civil liberties, but I have this feeling that now is the time to stand up for democracy.

Agh, I hit post message too early.

Azahar
my heart goes out to you
once again words seem inadequate

BBITM
I always get worried when people start saying things like that. Rights taken away in "emergencies" usually have to be fought for all over again.

"I want anyone captured to be sent out into a field wearing a rucksack full of explosives just like the ones they placed on those trains - the explosives that blew up babies for f**k's sake - and I want them to feel the fear of being blown up. And then I want them blown up."

Alas, what is far more likely is that, assuming the finger goes back to being pointed formly towards ETA, a few like-minded southern Spanish sociopaths will arrange to blow up innocents in the Basque region on the basis of "Let's see how you like it".

And then we are into a Northern Ireland, with more emotional charge invested in each atrocity until getting people to sit and talk becomes a festival of mutual recrimination and a rehearsal of past wrongs, with neither community wanting or daring to put all that aside because of their own anger and the anger of their supporters, who will turn on them if they falter as the spokespeople of anger and a desire to right past wrongs by extracting an eye for an eye.

"The fight seems to now be one that is going to go on forever. I don't hold out hopes that any sort of negotiations with fanatics is going to bear any fruit - do you? Do you honestly?"

I don't think negotiations will, no, though, some young fanatics shed their fanaticism as they progress in life experience.

But then, what are we to do? Imprison all fanatics in case they may turn to violence? How do we define fanaticism at the point where it may be dangerous?

"This very inexpert person, on the basis of the evidence presented on the radio, has formed the view that it points to collaboration between Eta and Al Qaeda. I wonder what you and your OH think about that possibility."

Hello, toxx. Yes, I was inclined to this view. Tony argues that the motives differ too sharply for the two groups to be able to agree; that it would be like the IRA working hand in hand with Al-Q: one group wishing to attain geographical aims, while the other wishes to create maximum destruction regardless of any localised geographical aims.

I'm open-minded. I can see the possibility of ETA being influenced by the Al-Q method of maximum shock by multiple impacts. I do not view the presence of a possible Arabic speaking, Quran reading helper as necessarily indicative of a link to modern Muslim groups. Why could ETA not have a muslim member? In a country with ancient links to the Arab world there must be long established resident muslim population spread throughout the country and fairly well integrated into the population.

If it was ETA, and they did adopt Al-Q methods, they will now being lying low, waiting for everything to blow over. As Tony said, the IRA did the same thing on Bloody Friday (he was in Northern Ireland at the time) when they blew up 22 bombs at the same time. See http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bfriday/sum.htm. Although they only killed 9 and injured less than 200, the reaction was so great they had to retreat for a while.

Terrorism doesn't, by and large, exist in a vacuum. The people who have to be won over are the people "around" the terrorists - because if this is not done *they* are simply going to become the next generation of terrorists. Exactly how this can be done, is, of course, very much a moot point.

Noggin

"The people of the affluent parts or Europe, in many ways made cynical and tired by their history, are being pushed towards a zealous vitality, willing to fight."

I disagree, Bouncy. They may be more willing to send soldiers to fight, which is an entirely different thing. The signs of a population being eager to fight might include:
-MPs talking about increasing taxes to pay for an army and equipment sufficient to conduct a war on terrorism on mnay fronts
-tabloid newspapers berating MPs for not increasing taxes to pay for the same
- a significant increase in volunteers to join the forces
- a general feeling among the population of being willing to endure privations such as being searched at bus stations, railway terminals and on demand by police, no matter how this adds to their journey times

You will notice that, apart from the last, none of the above require any inroads on civil liberties.

I think that is what we will see in the coming months.

Harsher language, money spent on 'anti-terrorist forces' or somesuch. Less willingness to appease or negotiate with any groups with terrorist associations.

Civil liberties are at threat because they can make it easier for terrorists to attack.

Heathen,

<>

Actually this is very unlikely. Spaniards do not equate Eta with the Basque people. They know that the majority are against Eta and that the only reason the Basque people don't actively do more is that they are afraid due to death threats by Eta to them and their families.

az

HS. I know that ETA and Al-Q seem like strange bedfellows. However, I imagine a scenario in which a single hothead or faction in ETA contacts Al-Q who take advantage of facilitated access to Spain and ETA's mobile phone trigger technology. At a late stage they just do what they like with the typical carnage and sucks to ETA. They have what they want.

This is just a hypothesis that seems to fit the available evidence and could well be worth testing.

toxx

i think it;s possible that some of the explosive carriers were unaware of the parttrtthey played i t might no be to difficult to fool so someone into thinking the were courriering harmarmless pckages that could be detonated by remte control ...simple as cell phone technology

I think that altho Azahar is very angry and hurt...she is also closer to this terrorist abomination and the people concerned with an understanding of their history and the Spanish peoples emotions than most of us. I don't believe for one moment that Azahar would be capable of strapping a bomb to someone and pressing the button, and watch them be blown to pieces in a bloody mess, coldly. Then again I could be wrong, but I hope not....no offense!

You can imagine all kinds of comeuppance for people, with just desserts, and to let it out, is healthier than holding it in.

If they are caught, I hope they are locked away somewhere very unpleasant and are able to have the peoples whos members of family have been killed or maimed, able to see them (if they are mentally strong enough) so that they can transfer their mental anguish and make them feel and see what they did was wrong. I would hope too, that they would never see the light of day.

If I come across as contradictory because of this below and the posting above:

<>

I agree because yes that is what would happen if we met those people on their own terms, and yes the thoughts are nice and vengeful and satisfying to express, but actually doing them is another matter entirely.

Ps - Errr I didn't read all the posts after Azahars reply to my 'people suck'.

I struggle to express myself sometimes, choose wrong words or miss em out..and get excitable and wanted to post striaght away before reading everything...

*donns hootoo protection suit for verbal arrows*

Its goes without saying my thoughts and empathies go out to all affected by the senseless atrocities in spain, i agree with az if those who organized and planned it are ever caught they too should be blown to smitherines, but lets give the a sporting chance make them clear minefeilds, defuse unexploded bombs.

It is likely that not all the carriers of these devises are aware of what they are carrying,to late to ask them now!

BUT SOMEONE KNEW,!!!!!!!!!!!!!

logicus,

People are under the assumption that these were suicide bombings. They were not. The bombs were planted and blown up with a remote control device.

az

So our first reaction here is that if someone kills another person then they should die? If they kill lots of people horribly then they should die horribly?

Oh well, so much for 10,000 years of civilisation....

Let's be clear about this - all life is sacred. No-one has the right to terminate another person's life. No-one.

Anyway what does that death achieve? In one stroke you free the perpetrator from experiencing the responsibility for their crime.

I think that a more creative punishment would be to spend the rest of their lives in solitary confinement, in which they are shown the face of every person they killed every day when they awake, and again before they go to sleep. A life with no hope, no future, just constant, grinding remembrance. No parole, no clemency, nothing.

But all this achieves nothing and does not give the sacrifice of all those innocent lives any meaning. Such an act as we have just witnessed, again, is a wake up call. We must begin to discover the causes of this violence. What injustice has given rise to this murderous vengeance, and what can we do to make it right such that it is never necessary again?

Until we begin to do this we shall continue to bury our children.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Matholwch,

While I agree that no one should gleefully enter into retribution, I disagree that retribution should never happen. We have already seen that unsavory individuals will kill, and continue to kill, until they themselves are either killed or captured. In WWII, do you think the Germans could have been stopped without killing quite some number of them? It's not pleasant, but sometimes it's kill or be killed, if it't avoidable, then yes, avoid it. First thing is find out who, and then maybe why, then you've to analyze the situation before action is taken. Of course just writing something down is easy, actually working through a problem of this sort is terribly tricky.

Someone did make that point that the only way to find out what terrorists want is to talk with them. Well, some terrorists all they want is to kill, and kill more of a certain group of people, or so it seems. In which case, I'm sure it would be lovely to infiltrate the terror organisation and see what else motivates them, money? religious power? governmental power? Who was the Chinese fellow who wrote "Art of War"? Seems like it would be a good read about now.