h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

a pakistani serial killer wa was recently sentenced to death by strangulation cut into 100 pieces and dissolved in acid but he he hung himself instead

<&lt. Franco had an immense cathedral built inside a mountain, using prisoners from the Civil War to build it, thousands of whom died during its construction. It is an austerely beautiful place, strangely enough. Very impressive. There is an enormous cross on the top of this mountain cathedral that can be seen for miles around.>>
Just like a Pharoah! And like a Pharoah, he no doubt wanted to be remembered forever... He is, but not in a good way!

I heard today that there is a tape seemingly from Al Quaeda (sp?) claiming responsibility... Jim simply said "I don't believe it" when we heard that. If it is ETA, they have seriously forfeited most of the support they had (and I believe they previously had a lot.)

Blackberry Cat, I agree with you, and azahar, yes, my sympathies, it must be terrible for you and your friends!
Like SD, I favour negotiation, but I know why you feel as you do, azahar.

Math,

<>

Wow, compared to that simply blowing them up would be like doing them a favour!

According to this morning's news al-Qaeda has declared itself responsible. Which of course is much worse than if it had been Eta.



az

hi Della,

Well, while negotiating with Eta has always been futile at the best of times, negotiating with al-Qaeda? I do realise that violence begets violence but I can't see al-Qaeda sitting down to talk to anyone.

And so, what now?

az

<&gt

Next to none, actually. It was estimated that they have dwindled to less than 200 members and the Basque people have always condemned any terrorist activity. There is an oulawed separatist party in the Basque country but I don't believe even they have much support from the people.

az

Oh, no, I didn't mean negotiate with Al Q! As far as I know, they don't even have any central *known* leadership (I am not sure what role OBL plays in the leadership there of...
What worries me is the spectacle of Bush involvement in Spain! I have heard that Aznar is deeply unpopular, and facing election. Oh dear!

<>

I think that is worrying a lot of people here, Della.

Yes, it's election day today. After the peaceful demonstrations of Friday evening people angrily took to the streets again yesterday demanding that Aznar tell them who was responsible. They thought he was withholding information until after the elections.

az

"HS. I know that ETA and Al-Q seem like strange bedfellows. However, I imagine a scenario in which a single hothead or faction in ETA contacts Al-Q who take advantage of facilitated access to Spain and ETA's mobile phone trigger technology. At a late stage they just do what they like with the typical carnage and sucks to ETA. They have what they want."

Well, toxx, last night's developments seem to indicate Al-Q, but they worry me even more, because:
(a) this is the first time Morrocans and Indians have been implicated in Al-Q work,
(b) it seems remarkably stupid to leave a phone the organisers have used, plus the van with its calling cards, and
(c) Al-Q's usual channel of communications is the Al-Jazeera network. They normally drive us to the Al-Jazeera station and hand over a video etc and drive off. This is completely different: a tape put in a bin in Spain and IIRC a telephone call to a local organisation with directions to the tape.

All this means that, if it was actually Al-Q, they are changing their tactics radically. As radically as Eta would be to carry out the same act. The implications are then that:
(1) Al-Q has spread way beyond Arabs, Tunisians etc to potentially encompass any Muslim fanatic from any country
(2) they will use local terrorist technology rather than relying on their own training in their own methods
(3) they are no longer offering training to cell members in e.g. in security, but leaving anyone to do their own thing
(4) there is no longer any attempt at central control of communications or overall planning.
(5) or fanatics are setting up their own cells, with their own agendas and claiming to be Al-Q when they have no official contact with that organisation. In which case we're simply into DIY uncontrolled terrorism at the whim of any local fanatic.

To be frank (5) scares me sh*tl*ss, because no political agenda or control need be involved at all. It's simply killing for the pleasure of it. Once we go down that path the whole thing spirals out of control. Yes, I know it's bad enough now, but...

"It is likely that not all the carriers of these devises are aware of what they are carrying,to late to ask them now!"

LTP, to be that small it had to be plastic explosive, which usually gives off a distinctive smell. Anyway, if asked, would you take a bag onto a crowded commuter train and leave it there deliberately, no questions asked?

"Let's be clear about this - all life is sacred. No-one has the right to terminate another person's life. No-one.

I think that a more creative punishment would be to spend the rest of their lives in solitary confinement, in which they are shown the face of every person they killed every day when they awake, and again before they go to sleep. A life with no hope, no future, just constant, grinding remembrance. No parole, no clemency, nothing."

Math

What you propose kills a person as surely as a death sentence and is far crueller. I count physical life as less important than the life of the personality and the spirit. 'Life' means more to me than mere physical existence and, so, were I to say that 'life is sacred' I would mean it in that wider sense.

While my other half may have made a study of international terrorism, I have studied the same mental attitude at work in the domestic and industrial environments. The only real response I can see is extensive counselling (which would include being faced by the families of those they had killed and maimed) and education. It has been shown to work in many cases.

But the defensive mechanisms used by most people with this mindset can protect them against any amount of that, if they wish. Brainwashing is one answer, but I put that in the same category as killing the body, or worse. So I would give them education and counselling and then, following that, give them a choice: continue with the therapy or choose death.

strictly speaking al Q is not an an orginsation but rather a belief system

"strictly speaking al Q is not an an orginsation but rather a belief system"

That may be so, crazy, but it can operate like an organisation. It has an (up to now) established channel of communication, a traning centre and a training manual. It isn't belief systems which produce such things but organisations.

HS. Yes, if Al-Q are partly or wholly responsible, it is deeply worrying. It is clearly desirable that we should be aware of the worst case scenario and be prepared. We need to use every advantage we have, which includes the ability to out-think them. I imagine that there will be even more call for intelligence agents (spies?) to infiltrate terrorist organisations in case Q tries to make contact.

It is early days as yet, but the prospect of even greater security measures is daunting. Yet it has to be a price worth paying unless/until these things can be eliminated at their source.

Should mobile phones networks be encouraged to ring all devices on random occasions? That way, nobody is going to want to use them as weapon triggers, since they might go off at any time.

toxx

isent this what causes a little thing called paranoia?

i'd like to see mobile phones banned alltogether as weapons ns of mass delusion

toxx,

That's a clever idea, but you know that they would just stop using mobile phones then and use another way.


Anthea,

Nothing wrong with a little healthy paranoia. Especially when we know that in fact they ARE out to get us. Better than burying one's head in the sand, anyhow.

az

"Yes, if Al-Q are partly or wholly responsible, it is deeply worrying. It is clearly desirable that we should be aware of the worst case scenario and be prepared."

I gather that the US intelligence services are still of the opinion the main suspect is Eta. Why?
(a) the timing benefits Eta through destabilising the current Spanish government which has been hounding them
(b) the arrests of senior Eta men by the government means the organisation is now in the hands of young radicals who may have tired of the old way of doing things and decided to adopt more extreme methods
(c) they used the Eta detonation method and preferred type of explosive, as well as the bags used to carry such
(d) there was no increase in communication traffic, which generally precedes a major event of this kind
(e) the foiled plot to blow up trains last December
(f) the foiled attempt to transport 1200lbs of explosive to Madrid last month
Against it being Al-Q:
(a) it was not a politically significant target (embassy, synagogue etc)
(b) they were not suicide bombers (this is a deliberate political trademark to express a religio-political point)
(c) it was not the usual type of explosive, detonation method etc
(d) responsibility has been claimed by "Al-Q", which would be a first
Another terrorist expert has apparently decided against a collaboration, which leaves, as the other possibility, a separate Muslim fanatical group. But, if so, this is surprising because there is no evidence of prior experience of something on this scale. It's akin to an inexperienced group organising a perfect conference for hundreds of delegates.

I find the differing bias within media netowrks disturbing. Last night, Sky concentrated on the uncertainty of who is responsible and tried to present the facts, while the BBC concentrated on Blair's speech and presented the 'facts' as though things were much firmer towards it being Al-Q. Blair must be aware of the US intelligence reports and I dislike the BBC tendency to peddle and support the government line by spin and gloss. It doesn't bode well in terms of further clamp downs on civil liberties.

anyanyone bent on bombing wouldn't fear been bl blown up by a phone anyway