h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

crazyhorse,

Of course I know you meant no offense!

I've been to Franco's tomb. It's in the Valle de los Caidos (the Valley of the Fallen). Franco had an immense cathedral built inside a mountain, using prisoners from the Civil War to build it, thousands of whom died during its construction. It is an austerely beautiful place, strangely enough. Very impressive. There is an enormous cross on the top of this mountain cathedral that can be seen for miles around.

I wanted to spit on his tomb.

az

Noggin,

After twelve years living in Spain and meeting many people of many ages and from all walks of life I have never met anyone who was nostalgic for 'the good old days'.

There is a bridge here called 'The Generalisimo' and nobody I know calls it by that name. They hate the name. They hate the person it was named after.

az

Franco's a while back, az. It's mostly a new generation now. Probably still a few holdouts among the landed gentry, but the prosperity of Spain now requires inclusion in "Modern Europe". That's what Juan Carlos was all about.

Noggin

Noggin,

Juan Carlos was groomed by Franco to become a royal figurehead that he could control. To his credit, Juan Carlos did not become this, though of course Franco died and removed that possibility. And then Eta blew up Franco's successor so finally a democracy was born.

People my age here still do remember life under Franco. Although they were either children or teenagers at the time.

az

Envío mi amor y condolencia a la gente española, qué un ataque terrible a aguantar, puede los perps ser encontrado y sufrir en infierno.

Vix - who has a few spanish friends, neighbours and a spanish babysitter..

Simply can't understand people at times.

vixen,

Not bad with the Spanish!

I wouldn't dare to post what most of my friends here hope for the terrorists if they are caught. To suffer in hell would be the least of their worries.

A friend of mine's cousin works as a bomb expert in Madrid (the ones who are responsible for finding and safely blowing up or deactivating bombs found). He told my friend that if they came across the perpetrators that there would be no way they would live long enough to receive 'justice'.

I can't blame them at all.

az

Thanks

Yeh, I don't get it at all...people suck. Surely they have now completely damned their organization and any miniscule creditability they may have held.

Propaganda here about terrorism has shot sky high again.. It gets difficult to filter thro the hype.



Did anyone notice that Korea is having a political scuffle?

I disagree.

People do not suck.

The people I see every day are the ones who do all the living and loving and working and attempting to make the world a good place for themselves and also for their children and grandchildren to grow up in. In spite of the odds against them. The still get up every morning and try to do the best they can.

They don't believe that the state of the world is hopeless. They continue to work for what they believe in.

People are amazingly wonderful in this sense - they do not give up.

People do not suck.

People who still believe we have a chance are the only thing we have left. Their optimism, their desire to create something good. A future. If not for them we may as well not get out of bed in the morning.

I'm not attacking what you said personally, vixen, only the words 'people suck'.

Perhaps you meant the terrorists. These creatures have totally forfeited their right to ever be considered human, imho. They are no longer human. They have forfeited their human rights. They deserve to die, and the sooner the better.

az

ps
don't beat me up about this the rest of you - I cannot help how I feel.

I am angry, that there seems to be so little opportunity to resolve the disputes that these different factions keep persuing. The biggest problem always seems to be that someone is blowing up someones children because their children were blown up. I am under no illusions about how unreasonable and irrational I might become if I my daughter was hurt or killed. Any means necissary would probably be my motto I hpoe I would be wise enough to remember that Justice might serve better than vengance.

But as I am not in that position and have the luxury of standing some chance of responding objectively to this, it seems to me that the subject of Fascism is somewhat moot. These organisations wether ETA or Al Quaida are behaving like Fascists, only their way is the right way, only their demands matter, and everyone who is not for them is against them and are not regarded as human enough to deserve life.

The 'war' against terrorism, if that is the right word (Which I doubt) is the same war that has been fought for centuries, The reasonable people trying to hold the unreasonable to account, the History of Rome, the history of the Christian church, the history of the 20th century.

I know it is hard but organisations like ETA should be drawn into the democratic process. It is early days in Norther Ierland, but things do seem quieter there than I remember them being for some time (Touch Wood). The big problem with not negotiating with terrorists is that they never have to hear the anger and arguments of the people they are fighting. Finding a way to talk at least provides that opportunity.

A Quaida seems a different and somewhat disturbing proposition however, something which might be in part a result of the hardline 'war' against terrorism stance. There is something in the fundamentalist Muslim perspective which Al Quaida typifies, which strikes me as similar to the inquisition perspective held in christianity centuries ago. I only hope a 'protestant' islam grows out of the chaos sooner than the Lutherian message did in europe, I cannot believe that this fundamentalist, combative, warlike view of islam, (Which seems alien to my reading of the Quran) is the view of all muslims.

The difficulty with Al Quaida's 'bomb them into submission, killing ourselves in the process' approach is that it almost completely excludes the possibility of negotiation. Guantanamo bay and the American perspective on the whole issue doesn't help in the slightest, it simply allows Al Quaida to claim a moral superiority they don't deserve.

An Even more worrying prospect might be that ETA has been feeling jeolous of all the attention that Al Quaida have gotten since 9:11 and have addopted the same tactic to grab back some of the limelight. Even worse other terrorist organisations might follow suit.

In the end I suppose a lot of these kinds of organisations are run by and on behalf of power greedy individuals who under the guise of 'one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter' use whatever skills at persuasion and personal charisma they have to convince vunerable and emotioanly hurt people (Who may have had terrible experiences) to do terribly things on their behalf. I notice that Osama Bin Laden (Or Ozzie Bin Liner as he is known in our house) Is emphatically not the one who is strapping a bomb to himself and going to stand in the bus Queue in jerusalem. I suspect that other self appointed generals steer well clear of suicide missions as well and no doubt at some point, may well be found hiding in a hole in the ground like a frightened rabbit a'la Saddam Hussain.

If this is a war, it is not a war against terrorism, its a war against fascism and George Bush's fundamentalist Christian approach may be more governed by the checks and balances of a democratic society, bit in it's retoric is very nearly as fascist, 'I'm right and your wrong' In Iraq it seems that the moderate Mullers who want to get the democratic process going are being snubbed by American officials who dont want to be seen as talking to representitives of Islam. If they can't talk to the moderate ones then there is not a snowball in hells chance that they will talk to the not so moderate ones and while they are not talking to each other the kinds of things that have just happened in Madrid will happen again and again.

I appologise to all on this thread if this seems a bit of a rant, but that's my opinion anyway.

I also think its important not to let these utterly despicable people turn me into their mirror image I feel vengefull, but hope I can be an effective warrior for peace

It's not. A majority of Muslims regard Al Quaeda as seriously unIslamic; but the situation is complicated by the fact that there are very real issues in the Moslem World about the impact of Western ideas and economic imperialism that do need to be addressed. A fact which GWB and the like seem ignorant of or indifferent to.

Noggin

SDog,

<>

I want them all dead. I want them all dead NOW. And I do not feel at all that this has turned me into a mirror image of them - the f**kers. I am not like them. But they chose their path - and their path was to no longer be human. To treat human life as though it means nothing. They should die.

az

No response . . .

Thing is, I am expressing the wish of all Spanish people I know.

If that sounds harsh or that we are stepping on the toes of the terrorists human rights - well f**k them.

You don't want to know what most of my friends wnat to have happen to these cold-blooded murderers.

az

Az

One part of me wanted to leave you with your anger and not reply, mostly beacause I feel you are as entitled to your anger as I or anyone else (My feelings tell me they should be obliterated as well), Another part of me wants to confront the very real difficulty that vengance begets vengance as dog beget's dog. Following incidents like this one it seems to me that the anger bubbles arround growing and fermenting and voices seeking a resolution wait for the furora to die down, reasoning that this is not the right time, people are too angry to hear a different message, ect.

I really do get angry about these sorts of incidents, they are needless an fundamentally evil, if I thought that wiping such individuals from the face of the earth in vengance would solve the problem I would go out of my way to do so. But I dont think it would make a hapeth of difference, all that would happen would be that their children or their childrens children would seek vengance on me, my children, or my grandchildren. I think this is what the sins of the fathers being visited onto the children and unto the third and fourth generations is about. Vengance and bitterness, a self perpetuating cycle which never ends.

I want them dead too, but I want the violence to stop more than I want to kill them, and if that means talking to those I hate then I will talk to them and supportand persuade others to do so.

This in no way means that my anger is not as great as anyone elses, it is just as vivid in my heart, and tears still spring into my eyes the same way they used to when I got angry as a child, but I want it to stop! because I have had enough of it! getting angry and hateing isnt stopping it so I am going to try ther things, and try to persuade others to do the same even if it means they get angry with me too.

I believe that I can only do this if, even when I am angry and those I am talking with are angry, we can think about what that feeling really means for myself, for others, and for what we do and say next.

But it isn't going to stop, is it?

You talk to them if you want.

I want anyone captured to be sent out into a field wearing a rucksack full of explosives just like the ones they placed on those trains - the explosives that blew up babies for f**k's sake - and I want them to feel the fear of being blown up. And then I want them blown up.

Sorry, that's just the way I feel.

az

I need to go home now but I dont want you to think that that means I am not taking this discussion extremely seriously because I am, but I have responsibilities I must live up to.

I will not be able to post again until monday but I will read everything posted from now until then.

SDog,

I appreciate that you care. And trust me, my 'imaginary' way of dealing with caught terrorists is far more humane than any other option I have heard from my Spanish friends.

az

I meant to say 'those people suck' - was in a hurry. I beg your pardon.

I don't see how anyone can 'beat you up' for posting your opinion, Az - I happen to agree with you.

No, it's not. Because too many people have too much invested in it, both psychologically on the one side, and as a justification for reproducing the inequalities that lead to it on the other.

Yes, the perpetrators have to be brought to account, tried and sentenced according to due process (for *our* benefit, not theirs).

Anger is natural. I wouldn't trust anyone who wasn't angry about this.
But ultimately you either have to talk to them, marginalise them (by addressing the underlying issues), or fight them *forever*.

Noggin

"However, if it was al-Qaeda, or a combined effort between al-Qaeda and Eta, how long before Bush & Co become involved? What will it all mean for Spain, and the rest of the world? And so, what now? (¿y ahora qué?)"

The 'signatures' (technical niceties in the construction of the bombs) seem to point towards Eta, for all their denials. My other half has done two interviews for Sky this afternoon/evening (he's an expert on terrorism) and he is convinced it's Eta. He may be wrong, but, if it is, he - and I - feel the effects were too big for them to be able to acknowledge now that public feeling is running so high. Their denial, and silence from every other terrorist organision, will be sufficient to make people wonder if it is Al-Q.