h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

az

thanks, hon, for the .

""There are four basic documentary approaches that can account for the fact that Mark is the middle term between Matthew and Luke:"

Well yes, but there is also the 'Q' hypothesis. The problem is that all three synoptic gospels contain material which is not found in the other two. Assuming an existant source - 'Q' - means they could each draw on that as well as on each other.

I would incline to believe in the existence of 'Q' as the source of oral accounts transmitted betweent he churches, with the gospel writers drawing upon this and each other. If 'Q' were oral this would account for the variations of stories found e.g. the amount of loaves and fishes and the apparent duplication of some events, these actually being variations of the same event.

AFAIK, certain of Paul's letters are supposed to pre-date the earliest written gospels anyway, though I believe there is an argument about this.

"The first three are bad because they lead to a wish for material pleasure, which does not lead to real happyness (at least I don't think it does)."

I think you mean sensual pleasure, sweetheart. They are actually immaterial. Material usually means a concrete artifact, such as a house, car, jewellery etc. Sex, eating, drinking, religion are all immaterial things, though the first three are the consumption of material things leading to sensual pleasure.

Heathen,

You're very welcome, though I was actually just helping Math out as he seemed to have had a bit too much to get the smiley right in his posting.

az

See http://www.ntgateway.com/Q/index.htm
The Case Against Q


Sherlock Holmes Style Search For the Historical Jesus @ http://www.angelfire.com/ms/coolfreebies/history.html



Alji

If the letters of Paul were indeed written by him, then they certainly predate the earliest known gospels by several decades. That the Pauline version of Christianity is the dominant one is probably down to a combination of this, and the effective destruction of the Jerusalem church by the Romans in AD 70.

Noggin

"The Case Against Q"

The case against a written Q, surely, Alji? I would have thought it was inevitalbe these stories were circulated and re-circulated orally, throughout Greece and Asia Minor. More interestingly, if the earliest gospel was not actually written until, say, 20 years after the crucifixion, that's a lot of possible distortion.

I realise that a number of those of disciples were alive during those years, but that's not many to go round so large a population of churches. Assuming Mark was actually an acolyte of Peter, and Matthew one of the disciples (both of which are hypotheses), Luke was not and John differs in many respects with the others, recalling some events which aren't in the other gospels and placing at least one major event at the opposite end of the supposed 3 year ministry of Jesus. And there are major differences in the accounts of the resurrection between the gospels, such as the presence of angels or of Jesus, the number of angels, who was present and what was said.

We also know how difficult it is for the police to derive accurate testimony from eye witnesses even for traumatic events shortly after they happen. As for events long after the act - I have listened to some of the eye witness testimony given to the Bloody Sunday enquiry: it's all affected by the political standpoint of the witness. Even reporters find it difficult, now, and have to rely to a large extent on their evidence written at the time. That was written down within hours of the events they saw. Psychological research shows how far the evidence of eye or memory is affected by what others report. Cognitive dissonance is a very strong motivator for changing our memory and the evidence of our senses, consciously or unconsciously.

I have seen this for myself within the Wiccan community in the UK. Those who were part of Gardner's original covens often lied, and now, at a distance of 50 years, seek to say nothing to clarify obscurities, either out of self interest (for all the early Wiccans hold a place of authority within the community), stupidity or because they simply can't recall and don't wish to slur the reputations of others. Things are written which accrue an unhistorical authenticity. For example, a piece of ritual written by someone I know during the 1980s has surfaced in America as part of someone's family heritage which 'goes back centuries'. The author may decry this as imagination to his/her friends here in the UK, but there are thousands who believe this item to be an ancient document.

"That the Pauline version of Christianity is the dominant one is probably down to a combination of this, and the effective destruction of the Jerusalem church by the Romans in AD 70.£

And down to the man's incredible energy in travelling and stetting up churches.

But the actual domination of any particular 'brand' comes down the the body which decided which texts were 'authentic' and which weren't, which happened a few hundred years later.

For anyone interested in looking at some of the texts which weren't included, try: http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/gospels.htm

HS, I wish you'd read my links!

As for Paul, he's as mythical as JC, the flood and David.


Alji

Alji,

Further to what you said about food allergies, etc :

Prince Charles says we have become allergic to our western way of life!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1158233,00.html


az

ps
do you think he actually writes this stuff?

"HS, I wish you'd read my links!"

Alji I did read a fair amount, but there was an awaful lot of that site and, to be truthful, this is no longer exactly central to what I believe , so once the site started going into all the ins and outs of Mark Priority v Luke priority etc when I'd rather be thinking about my forthcoming holiday to Ireland, it was difficult to concentrate.

Yes az, I think he does write his own stuff.



Alji

<>
Well, duh! Your point is?
As for Ghandi, there have been stories circulating, about the fact that he would take young girls to bed to 'test himself' - I wonder what they thought of it?
<>
I had a bad marriage, but that doesn't mean that all are. In my family, there have been two bad ones, maybe 3 - but there have been twice as many good ones, and one or two brilliant ones! Bad experiences don't invalidate the whole concept.

Vixen, I may have not made myself clear, I am *not* supporting the film, I simply thought that Matholwch was vastly over-reacting to it, by saying things like 'sinister stuff', as if it is some kind of bizarre conspiracy!
Mel Gibson's films since Mad Max have by and large been rubbish, some more than others (The Patriot springs to mind.)

I don't really know much about that all, but I have read a complicated book by J.A.T Robinson (who I believe died shortly after) about the priority of the Gospel of John.
His thesis is interesting, though I don't think widely accepted.

<>

I have to admit that I do too--I don't know what I was thinking when I posted that. I haven't been getting a lot of sleep recently.

<>

I agree, but is bad for different reasons. It is bad because it decieves people into being sure of thngs they can't really be sure of, because it leads to self-riteusness and absolute certainty in many cases, and because it so often promotes falasies and falsehoods, and because it oftewns unifies people in error or acts to coordinate discrimination or aggression.



<>

Nothing leads to real happyness; there is no such thing. Happyness is unattainable (or maybe I'm just in a cynical mood right now). Sleep deprivation makes me a bit irrational at times.

<>

Nirvana, which I doubt actually ewxists. I don't think one can be truely happy, and as I just pointed out to Noggin, I'm not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that post.

LB

I'm not sure that real happiness exists either
Then again my dr. reckons I'm clinically depressed (whatever that means) so I'm probably not a good judge of this

From http://www.solveyourproblem.com/artman/publish/article_77.shtml

"There are many symptoms of depression. The presence of several of the following would suggest that you are depressed:


Sad or blue mood which lasts for weeks or months.

Spells of crying when you might not even know what you are crying about.

A sleep disorder. Either you have trouble sleeping at night or you sleep too much.

Chronic fatigue or a lack of energy. You feel exhausted during the day for no apparent reasons, unless you've had trouble sleeping at night.

A lack of, or diminished, enjoyment in life. You rarely or never have fun anymore.

A lack of, or diminished, motivation. You find it difficult to finish your chores, work productively or start those projects which need to be done.

Poor self-esteem. You feel worthless or useless.

Suicidal thoughts or plans. Life just doesn't seem worth living any longer.

Difficulty concentrating or making decisions. You have trouble reading a book, for example, or can't decide about an important issue.

An appetite disorder. Either you're not hungry, and so have lost weight, or you eat too much."



Alji