h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Maltholwch:

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Our physical forms are the product of evolution and their purpose is to perpetuate their DNA. Something that serves this goal may still be wrong if it has a negative influence on the mind.




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I would say that it is wrong for me; I would not say that it is wrong for everyone.




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I disagree.




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I will try to keep it under constant review, but I don't see how I am inviting disaster.

Bouncy Bit in the Middle:

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I'd say yes.




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Perhaps a strong person wouldn't need to resort to extremes, but not all of us can claim to have such willpower. It is safer to avoid something than to risk overindulging in it. Anyway, I would maintain that sex is addictive and therefore generally dangerous.




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No, you have to pick a goal to justify it.

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Interesting idea, Strontium.

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I would argue that being a physical being is a negative sthing, a thing that should be treated as bad and its importance weakened.




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One side may not win, but one can usually hold off the other if you try hard enough.

<<(1) are all things physical equally wrong for you, or is it just sex, or is there a gradation of wrongness between differing physical behaviours?>>

All physical things are wrong, but there is a gradation.



<<(3) if there is a gradation of wrongness in different physical activities, what prompts the level of wrongness?>>'

Sometihng is wronger if it is less necesarry. For example, enjoying tasty food is wrong, but it is less wrong because one needs to eat to live.

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Then maybe all pleasures are wronf.

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Normalicy is quite boring, I am weird and would be slightly offended by the suggestion that I am not.

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It is still a physical pleasure if it is consentual, loving, and within marrige. That makes it wrong (for me at least).

HS and Stoneageman

Thanks, HS, you took the type right off my keyboard. Oh, sorry, that's not very original, is it...?

The Original Jez - heathen and witch.

hi Lemon,

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Then you will always be denying who and what you are and treating yourself badly and undermining your own importance. The physical and the cerebral are not separate things and cannot exist separately.

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That sounds like quite a sad and bleak existence to me.

az

Hi StrontiumDog

"Reportedly celtic Druids abstained from sex...".

The actual reason for this was generally political. If you are to be the independant arbiter of inter- and intra-tribal disputes it doesn't do your credibility any good if you are boffing one of the locals .

Druids did have relationships and children as a result.

Many ascetics in the past have abstained from sexual relations for periods of time as a way of distancing themselves from everyday life, whilst searching for a particular thread of wisdom. This does not make them permanently celibate like the frankly odd chaps in the Catholic priesthood.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.
A druid with a healthy sex life.

"Some people may find that laughable and old-fashioned, but that's what I believe, for cultural, interpersonal and yes, religious reasons.)"

Ah, Della - isn't it nice to able to raise religious causes in a discussion without wondering whether people will either (a) think you're a nut (probably worse for us pagans than for the average Christian, but it's still bad for anyone) or (b) think you're out to convert them.

"Anyway, I would maintain that sex is addictive and therefore generally dangerous."

Is it? Surely, if it were, there wouldn't be the need for sex therapists to coach people in how to bring their sex lives back to life? Nor the very many marriages which become, effectively, celibate. Nor... well, sexual research suggests that the average consumption of sex is fairly low, with the minority overindulging. This suggests a self-regulating mechanism which generally regulates to a fairly low level, and lower in women (who generally report less desire for sex than men) than in men. I remember a womens' mag conducting its own readers survey of whom around 5% reported having sex twice a day and one reader responding with "Who *are* these people?? Where do they find the *time*???"

The much more common addiction appears to be that of falling in love. Psychologists seem to view the dysfunction which results in people continually seeking new affairs or sexual relationships as attributed to this rather than any addiction for the actual act. If you piece together what is written on the subject from a variety of sources, from the media to memoirs to research, any woman who is a genuine sex addict has no difficulty in finding men ready to participate. But these are relatively rare - for most it is the either the thrill of the initial pheramone and endomorphine-driven experperience of 'falling in love' or, as SD mentioned, the driving need for attachment which leads to a number of different sexual relationships.

"All physical things are wrong, but there is a gradation."

Ah, I begin to see where you are coming from on this, LB. The meme is not confined to Eastern religions; there is a Western European form known as Gnostics, an early Christian heresy.

Is your POV defined as a result of a religious conviction, or something else? If it is not, what stimulated you to adopt this position? What makes it attractive to you?

"Normalicy is quite boring, I am weird and would be slightly offended by the suggestion that I am not."

Weird, sweetheart? Not proven, I think. Just a viewpoint which is outside the normal range when not accompanied by a certain type of religious lifestyle or life experience. I know, for example, a number of women who, either by themselves or with their partner have foresworn sex. But that is usually preceeded by certain childhood and adult life experiences.

If you want to prove yourself to be weird:
(1) how many close friends do you have and do they all share your views (weird answer: 'none')
(2) how many non-close friends do you have (weird answer: 'none' or 'three hundred and they all share my opinions')
(3) what do you do with all the time and energy released through denial of physical pleasures? (weird answer: collect half eaten Doritos or My Little Pony etc)
(4) what steps do you take to avoid situations where you will be put in a position of desire to indulge in physical pleasure of any kind? (weird answer: follow the directions left to me as secret symbols on half eaten Doritos)
(5) what responses do you give to people who tempt you with indulgence in physical pleasure? (weird answer: surreptitiously place half eaten Doritos in their clothes as this will bring them round to the corrct point of view)
(6) when did you begin to adopt this POV? (weird answer: since seeing a half eaten Dorito on Crewe railway station at the age of six and realising my purpose in life).

"This does not make them permanently celibate like the frankly odd chaps in the Catholic priesthood."

Now, come on, Math - everyone konws what those housekeepers to priests are for.

. . . not to mention the choirboys.

A lot of posts since I last contributed and a lot of interesting themes raised.


There seems to be a theme you lemon blossom that pleasure is wrong, and I think that it is possible for some that it is, but on the whole I would tend to think that this can become somewhat puritanical, in my opinion pleasure is not wrong, but I suspect that over-indulgence might be. My instinct tells me that we all seek pleasure, but that we find different things pleasurable E.G. the masochist finds pain pleasurable and the asthetic finds self denial pleasurable. I am increasingly curious about why you find Physical pleasure so wrong for yourself.

Heathen Sceptic


Addiction is I belive a slightly different issue, anything can be addictive, I dont think sex is particularly so, Many would claim food is addictive, but for some sufferring anorexia the euphoria brought about by the death of brain cells when they are starved of nutrients is also addictive, abstinence in it's self can be addictive.

This links to the earlier theme of balance and to another issue of motivation, I belive our motives for behaving in a certain way are probably more important that the way we behave, at least in terms of its importance to us as individuals. Clearly some of our behaviour can be very important for others but for us it is our motves that are significant.

Many sex addicts do report that they continue to enjoy the sex they indulge in, howeve I am inclined not to believe this. Addiction implies a compulsion to continue to behave in a certain way, despite knowing that this is bad for you. I would argue the addict does not enjoy the activity rather the satiation of the addictive feelings which whilst a
subtle difference is an important one.


My comment on the isolating nature of abstinence was mainly directed at attempts at 'total' abstinence of aesthetics which by defenition is isolating, since it distances from all human contact, and many have found it difficult to even establish communication with another human being after years of isolation. More conventional monastic life to
my mind represents a less extreme form of abstinence.

Modern or even post modern life has become more complex than historical life. In this brave new worldspirituality, philosophy and religious beliefs have become intertwined with secular life, inevitably people
in all areas of life cherry pick ideas and approaches from each other If I remember Olivier was at one time interested in oriental philosophy, prehaps he discovered it her or maybe it was elswhere.

Exclusive relationships.

This is related to the issue of trust. (This could get seriously metaphysical)It is impossible to know in an absolute sense what another person is thinking or feeling, assuming that there are no genuine telepaths in existance as a result it is also impossible to know for certain if someone is lying or telling the truth, Trust requires a leap of faith at least to some small extent. If some level of trust is present and is suported by some reasons for that trust to be given,
then a partner can be as certain as they can be that their relationship is exclusive.

One good way to know if you are able to trust someone is to know how trustworthy you are yourself, if you are able to be honest with yourself on this point then you stand a good chance of knowing if someone else is trustworthy.


Matholwch
It is very difficult indeed to make concrete statements about what celts did or didn't believe and what druids did or did not do,
About the only things we really know for certain about celts is that they did not write their stories down, as this killed the story.
Roman writers such as Julius Ceasar mention that this was a strongly held belief, he also mentioned that they piled their enemies heads at the gates to their villages too, reputedy the roman disrespect of this tradition led to the invention of the game of football.

I dont argue with the point about temporary and permanent celibacy one jot.

Della the Cat Woman: So I did that thing.
I wonder about your dislike of ' unmarried, uncommitted sex. .' Have you considered that for some people this is a form of recreation
or sport and very different in their minds from the other kind or Married Committed sex. Not forgetting that there are other kinds of
involvement in such an activity, e.g. just being randy and insensitive.

Hi Strontium

It is a common fallacy, much reinforced by generations of Christian and pro-Classics propaganda, that much of the lore of the peoples of pre-Roman Britian is lost.

In fact large swathes of it were maintained by the Colleges of Bards. Some was given a Christian gloss, such as The Mabinogion, to make it acceptable to the Church. The remainder stayed within the communities that supported the bards.

Personally I give little credence to the writings of Romans, in whose interest it was to rubbish and demonize the barbarians of the north, nor to the Christian monks and scholars who later transcribed and interpreted these latin texts.

I give greater respect to early Greek writings that refer to the Druids as being the wisest people in the world at the time. Indeed, Pythagoras credits them with teaching him their sacred geometry, including Pi.

There is a lot more out there than you might think and more and more of this knowledge is now being revealed, as the stranglehold of Christianity is slowly being released from Western civilisation.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.