h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Insight

"I still don't have a satisfactory answer to my ealier question, why is free will + evil better than no free will + no evil.>
If you're so convinced Bod, then why not kill yourself? Once you're dead, you'll have no free will, and no evil. Or does life, with evil, seem preferable?"

Death is still free will, and if there is any sinning going around then killing yourself when you have the 'gift' of life seems to be the one I'd opt for as numero uno.
you'll note that your kingdom of heaven quote contradicts the Jesus one from the same book.
which do you think is correct and why?

a few of those contradictory quotes

'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.

Blessed are the Merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
(will this include non christians?)
"LOVE ONE ANOTHER"

i think again another case of misquoting the bible there is nothing wrong in helping your neighbour that is how you bring the kingdom about. this expression was used in alot different cases as the word God was sacred to jews. the kingdom that i was talking about was referred in beautiudes. also you must have a grasp of judasim to understood fully what was being said. please do notuse the bible in a negative way. moth i do not why you think in the bible christians are not told to love non christians. at the end of time (subjective) whe will be asked whether or not we have done many works of mercy not whether we are christians or not. faith without good acts is useless. having a private faith where you do not work for a better life for all is wrong. if you read my entries on the iona community, celtic spirituality and liberation theology. i am not one to go on quoting the bible. but if you are set in your mind with such negative points of few about christians i doubt anything i say will change it. not all of us are bible bashers. perhaps if you stop seeing us in a negative way and believing all the negative things the capatalised mass media say. why not visit communities like iona or what are you afraid that you will find that we are not all isolationists and do not live up to your sterotypical images. see the person not the label.

kat

Moth, I can't find anything that says the infinite is unchanging! In an infinite universe the can be infinite change. There would be no change in a static universe.



Alji

Right on Alji.

Alji
I said it .
Are we not allowed new thoughts/ideas unless they are backed by the internet?
If something changes, it means it does not stay the same.
How can something be infinite that does not remain the same?
The very nature of change, which is cause and effect, means that something becomes 'different.'
The Universe is not static, it changes, it changes because it is not infinite.

Kat
I don 't listen to the media and on the infrequent occassions I do I've never heard any anti Christian 'propaganda'.
I'll mention it again, all my thoughts are based on my personal experience
I have no doubt that if I visited the places you say I would find some very nice humans.
I do see the person and not the labels. I never first think that person is gay or consider what their religion is, this is usually an after thought.
I take people as I find them whatever the label they apply to themselves.

moth it's wrong to generalise, you have to realise that christianity is an international faith and crosses many types of cultures and it's not just a western religion. i have written three entries one on iona community, the other celtic spirituality and the other liberation theology. not all christians go around aiming to convert people. the people at iona do not aim to convert people. i have visited many different places of different faiths. also what about religions that worship many gods which has not been mentioned in this conversation. i had a very ecumentical upbringing and learnt about all types of faith, religions and beliefs .

kat

the bible is also read by jews. i think about 75% and that does not take in account of rabbinical tradition and the oral law/tradition.

kat

"'I still don't have a satisfactory answer to my ealier question, why is free will + evil better than no free will + no evil.'
If you're so convinced Bod, then why not kill yourself?"

My main reason is because my death would cause suffering to my friends and family, as well as to those who benefit from my efforts to make the world a better place in terms of social harmony, environmental peace and economic justice.

Therefore the happiness vs suffering balance would be worsened by my death. Check out the Bodhisattva prayer on my home page for why I wish to continue to exist.

"Once you're dead, you'll have no free will, and no evil. Or does life, with evil, seem preferable?"

That's a very selfish viewpoint. Whether I would prefer to cease to exist is not relevant to whether or not "evil" exists. It is not my perception of "evil" which is the problem, it is the existence of "evil" itself, which will doubtless continue after I am gone.

Further, as so often what you say does not challenge the core of my argument, it merely requires it to be refined:

Why is free will + evil + life better than no free will + no evil + life?

Bod

Hi Kat,

"the bible is also read by jews. i think about 75%"

Indeed, there is a common thread (the Abrahamic tradition) to all "Religions of the Book" (Christianity, Islam and Judaism [plus Sikhism? (Alji?)])

The (Pauline) Christian Bible is split into the Old Testament (Jewish scripture) and the New Testament.

Muslims accept five books as divine revelations, including the Torah (Jewish Law - Leviticus, Deutoronomy etc in the Bible), The Psalms (also common to Christianity and Judaism), and the Gospels revealed to Jesus.

Bod

"moth it's wrong to generalise"

Always?

Hi Barb,

"I am hoping that in the future ALL MANKIND will leave Religion OUT of what is going on in the world....It should be a private, personal thing in your own heart and mind. Religion=Freedom in your mind...It does not have to be outward...it should be from within...."

What use is religion if it does not make a person wiser and more compassionate?

And how can compassion express itself other than through benevolent actions towards others? Religion absolutely must have a place in what's going on in the world, at least at an individual level - your religion defines who you are and every aspect of your life and your involvement with others should reflect that.

But I agree with you that formalised, institutionalised religion can be dangerous and perhaps that's what you are referring to?

Bod

Hi Barb,

"RE Classes should be done away with"

Let's distinguish between RE (Religious Education) and RI (Religious Instruction).

Perhaps you are right that RI should be done away with (from state schools), but surely proper RE is essential for developing religious tolerance?

Bod

Fnord,

"And I most certainly am immortal"

Hey, me too!

For nobody has been able to prove to me otherwise...

Bod

Hey Della,

"If, as God is, by definition, superior, the only life God could create would be 'subservient'. That's in the nature of things!"

What's wrong with an equality relationship?

Bod

I wish that I could belive in God in a religious sense, I really do. I think that it could bring some comfort to me in a way, to be able to say, hey, it's just that way because God wants it that way. But I can't bring myself to do it, my heart is in one place and my mind another. Perhaps I could classify myself as a Dieist, God just set it in motion, and we just live here. It's impossible to say whether God exists or not, since he really hasn't given us much information to go by. Like it would be so hard to stop by a TV station and say "Hey, I'm God, here's a miracle" I guess we're supposed to take it on faith that somebody in the past spoke to God, got the facts right, the traslation was correct and they weren't schizophrenic. But there's alot of stuff we're supposed to take on faith like "The check's in the mail" or "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you" I suppose if you want to speak of God in the sense of the "prime mover" the starter of things, then sure, God exists, at least for me, for lack of a better explanation. But I think that's what God has been for so many years, a lack of a better explanation. We use God, and faith in God as an explanation for the unexplained, but what it really means is that we refuse to admit that we don't have an answer to everything. THat pisses us people off, we need to know everything, we love knowledge. God was meteorology, God was physics, God was everything. But now we have science, and now God is the unexplained mysteries of the Universe and the afterlife, places that science fears to tread, or can't. We need to have more faith in ourselves, and in knowing that we don't know the answers. God is comfort for those who need to know what can't be known, faith is believing in what cannot be proven. And God, even if he does exist, well I hardly think that people would be able to understand his true nature anyway. I mean, come on, people think that they read the bible and know what God wants or what God means? This is the God capable of creating a universe, of creating laws of nature. Most people can't comprehend Stephen Hawking, and they think they know God? How can we as finite creatures understand that which is infinite, we can describe it with math, but we can't comprehend it. We can't visualize infinity, because we live in a dimensional world. Infinite has no bounds, it's not big, or small, its everywhere, and no where. So does God exist? For me, not in the sense that religious people see him. God for me is a concept, the creation of the universe, a presence perhaps, but not some bearded fellow looking after me. I suppose we'll all find out sooner or later, but I'm not going to spend my life waiting and dedicating my life to the question. My advice, live a good life, be a nice person, and do your best to bring happiness to the world around you, and you'll be doing infintely more than most "religious" people.

Moth and Alji you're arguing at crossed purposes.

Infinite in terms of the universe refers to its size. As it encompasses all matter it is the biggest thing there is(physical dimensions).

It is not commonly believed to be eternal or unchanging and in that sense will not be infinite in lenght(time)

MOTH you wrote

Purpose of life survival?
Then it would be enough to remain neanderthal since we would still survive, even if that was through progeny and DNA.
survival? we don't do a good job of that but we do do a good job of evolution.


Life has no "purpose" in the way that we normally use that word anymore than an erupting volcanoe has a "purpose"

Life is uniquely self propogating in its natural processes. But we do not as you put it "do" evolution.

Evolution is the action of randomly mutating DNA and the survival advantages it can bring to organisms in competition with other organisms.

When we "do" evolution it tends to be selective breeding of cattle slaves or rose bushes etc... or in more recent timegenetic manipulation.