h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

its both of me. sadly rosi then you must believe that everyone should not be allowed to believe in God or whatever name you like to put to it. you must not have heard of the christian workers society. i believe in God and i do not act in an irrational way because of that. liberation theology is about making social changes. people who believe in god are not necessary irrational and its very unfair generalistion and very out of date.

kat

we have other gods in society now, money, power, etc. these are gods but they are the captailists gods.

kat

Bod
"Why? Could God not have created them with free will, no desire to do harm, and no belief that harming others could benefit them?"
Because harm, doing it, being a victim of it, tripping over it 'accidently' are all experiences which the soul desires to find out what it really is?
Is it something that enjoys harm, or abhors harm? The only way to know is to experience it.
This does not mean that an individual cannot select to live a life without causing the minimal of harm (although it is possible to cause harm with 'good intentions too )but mostly we select to be 'harmless' after we have experienced harm first hand and know what it feels like.
you can't reject something that does not exist and the idea of finding out who you really are is about rejecting and accepting things within yourself.

Bod
It isn't a christian only trait that over looks items in the historical text we call the bible. It's a denial inherent in all of us when offered the fairly incomprehensible.

People always seem to want to believe the 'meat and potatos' bits of anything that they can check out with their senses.
i have this idea that if god appeared on a mountain and told everybody in plain words what life is all about, 99% of the people wouldn't see it. Hey probably happens everyday
There are none so blind who will NOT see.
There are miracles around us all the time, we just deny them for convenience.

Insight

Why would Jesus teach us to pray 'Let your kingdom come' if it was already here?"
Again we have a problem with interpretation
Isn't the above just as true, when referring to heaven in a person?

Let yourself believe, let yourself see and the 'kingdom' will be revealed to you if you like.
didn't Jesus say something like knock at the door and it will be opened?
Isn't that door the door of understanding in your mind?
The door marked 101 and denial?

Rosi

Again this is about religion , not God.
god isn't a sit back and don't try to make the world a better place because your'reward' is in the after life.
Although this has actually brought some solace to those who are completely without comfort and support and as such could be considered a blessing.
~Who so ever we feed, and house and comfort, there will always be those who are forgotten or cannot be reached in time.
To deny them there 'imagination' of an after life in bliss would be a cruelty perhaps.

Hi Toxx,

"Get real, Bod."

What is "real"?

"Insight clearly has it right. You can't provide free will and then start restricting it left right and centre!"

Why not? I wish to fly without mechanical aid, but my will to do so is not enough. "Creation" has placed limitations. If "Creation" is "God" then he HAS chosen boundaries. My question stands; why set the boundaries there rather than at a point which prevents us from causing pain and suffering to others?

And I still don't have a satisfactory answer to my ealier question, why is free will + evil better than no free will + no evil...

"No desire for this, no knowledge of that." I hope I didn't say "no knowledge of..." did I? If so I immediately take it back. I may have said "No belief that..." in which case I stand by that if the beliefs in question are wrong beliefs.

Bod

moth sadly there is a view that all christians are right wing. you have not made any comments about my contributions.

please do not generalise about christians/christianity. have not you heard about liberation theology - on the side of the poor and oppressed. liberation theology is about bringing the kingdom of God here and now by working with the poor and oppressed and working against their oppressors. i have written an entry on liberation theology on the h2g2 christian thread. liberation theologians and their supporters are always being accused of being marxists. the establisment don't like them.

kat

Hi Kat

Really , I don't mean any disrespect, in fact , the cause I work for would not be where it is without the christian social justice folks. They are a determined, contientious, talented, and effective lot. My best friend John, an inspirational character, trained as a Jesuit priest but chucked it in at the last chance.He now is the driving force behind several community projects, he also rejects god.

I often get into a scrape about god with my friends, including my partner, because I am honest in my desire to get people to think in a way they might not be used to ,another thing, not many athiests are prepared to stick it out there seeing as we are, really , a minority,( not going for sympathy here, it's a fact).

Caring for people is not irrational. What is the motivation?

X
rosi

Concerning the view of all Christians being right wing, consider this:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. They called nothing their own but gave to each as he had need"
Acts of the Apostles

One defines true communist society, the other true Christian society.

Spot the difference.

PS: no bible on me right now, so I can't give you a precise reference and the wording's probably a bit out. But not far off. Insight?

Every act is an act of
self-definition.
The purpose of Life is evolution.

And that, therefore, is the purpose of the soul. For the soul IS Life,individually expressed.

Universal Energy, everywhere present and everywhere expressed. Life pours itself into every moment, as pure energy manifested in specific and individual ways.

Life is God, expressing Itself.

I'm sorry Moth..that is nonsense.

kat

No I haven't heard of liberation theology.
I have only expressed my opinion on my experience as we all do.
I don't recall writing that I thought christianity was any kind of wing, right or left. I'm sorry if i gave that impression, it wasn't meant.
From my experience there is a type of Christian who is very helpful indeed, but like the missionaries of old it may come with a price and that was the price of believing as they do.
It annoyed me to hear that behind the alliance army in Iraq came the American evangelical church, a branch of christianity, that offered food and aid in return for convertion from Islam to Christianity.(subtlely !)
this is an extreme example but only used to suggest that within any 'organisation,' there is the perceived good and the bad.
Extremes of piety and devilment perhaps.
I believe that unless you believe in *all* the various versions of christianity as it appears in the world today, you shouldn't perhaps see a criticism towards one as towards all.
for my part I live in a village with a strong baptist element.
they are , on the surface, the kindest, most caring folk around, but they do want their convertions. and if they don't get them they drop people like hot cinders and stop their children playing with yours. Because, by their view, if you're not one of 'them' you're satans tool!
Funny old world.
now I'll go re read your original post again.

Rosi
There isn't any need for apologies ,

Perhaps you could be more verbose and tell me why you consider it to be nonsence. since that is more the essence of a debate.
If you can prove to me that it is nonsence however, I'll apologise to you and rethink my belief .

Arghhhhhhhhhh!
nonsense
I hate it when I've spelt a word correctly for years and then it all goes hopelessy wrong
sorry

Hi

This is certainly a very intesting debate that can go on Forever!

God is Alive and Well if you WANT him to be. If you get comfort from it, it does no harm. To me, it's a private thing.
I believe in Freedom of Religion. A person's "Religion" cannot be surpressed, opressed, or whatever...it's what you believe in your mind and heart..Opression can only exist in outward displays of religion such as common houses of worship, public prayer etc.

Some "practiced" religions are hypocritical anyway. The Sunday church-goer who is a swindler in real life, etc etc, you get the picture...

Anyway, having said that...My belief is that the Bible is a nice story.....Being passed along away for so long and having so many different interpretations one varying from the other....It's kind of hard to take it as "FACT". Which part? Says Who?.....and who are these people anyway? Prophets? I don't know.....

I have a question about Noah and his Ark... As I recall it, the story goes Noah built an Ark because the Lord told him to...Two by Two, etc etc.
Rained for forty days and forty nights....My question: Were the ones on the Ark the only ones to have survived....What about the rest of us? Where was this? Was the whole world flooded????? I really don't know enough about that story...or I can't buy it at all.
Any replies?

Barb

Ofcourse Christianity is not right wing (or left wing for that matter).

Although it is a wrong assumption easily made when many right wingers use or twist chritian doctrine to support their political views.

Toxx, might be god,.....well he never changes.

people who go to church are no different than others they make mistakes it does not make them hypocrytics we are not born holy. please do not make judgements about christians - seems you thinks we people who go to church all hypocryts they are aware they have failings. i go to church and i have failings are you saying i am hypocrytical. i do not go around condeming people about their differences. how many christians do you know. you are the one who is judgemental. christians are now encouraged to be tolerant even when they are attack by people who call them hypocryts.

kat

i was brought up to believe that the bible is parablic and not to be taken literally. you are very out of date - it is written in a language that people could understand and it's written for a middle eastern culture not a western one.

kat

Kat:

OUCH!!.... Didn't mean to step on toes here....I don't condemn Christianity or any other religion, be it "God" centered or not...I think everyone SHOULD be free to choose their beliefs, practice their religion or pray in private....Unfortunately, some are NOT free to "practice" religion outwardly...but no one can stop you from believing what's in your heart, praying etc., so to speak.

By all means "Christianity" in its true sense in Good. Perhaps I am not in the position of knowing too many people who actually Practice what they Preach.

When I said "Church-goers" are hypocrits, I did not mean to generalize...But the fact is many are...(unfortunately)... that comment was addressing "those" people. A thief or murderer for example could not be a "true" Christian, and if they think they are, they should wake up, smell the coffee and take a good look in the mirror....

Of course, no one is perfect, and we all make mistakes. I, for one, have made many in my life. But in the process I have learned. That's what it's all about in the end... Learning from your mistakes in life makes a better person....BUT...if we don't learn from our mistakes....what does that make us?... How many chances do we get?

Barb