h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I apologise for not reading the backlog, in case this has been said before but....

...God: fact or fiction?

Neither: 'I have found it necessary to dent knowledge in order to make room for faith'. Immanuel Kant, and me, just now.

FwT

I've just come back to this conversation after a few days' absence. It has, without question, become a "mass theological debate": a handy resource for the tenets, practices and beliefs of just about any faith system, whether or not God-based. However, it's singularly lacking in any positive proof on the core issue: whether God is fact or fiction. Ancient texts (of uncertain provenance) are not proof. Or, if they are, we must accept dragons and werewolves as fact on the grounds that they, too, figure in ancient texts.

referring, vaguely, to Matholwch's first post on this page and what he was referring to:

Nope, I have never seen anyone else but Christians evangelising. Several other faiths offer leaflets, but that is an invitation rather than a mission and essential part of their 'service'. And don't just just about have to *beg* to convert to Judaism? It's certainly not a light decision. Which handily discourages those whose hearts aren't really in it. (I'd rather learn Hebrew than read a Chick tract, tho'.)
I have asked several Christians, of several types, what they each think of the 'way to paradise' issue. Some have told me there is no getting there through good deeds, you have to accept and make known your acceptance of Jesus. Then try and get everyone else to. Others say that what you do and how you are as a person does have an influence. (was it?)Natai (apol. if not you) claims that Pagans can do what we wish as God doesn't really care. Some I have asked say they understand my beliefs and think they're fine, others say I am completely wrong and undeniably hellbound. Yet the latter say that no Christian differs with another on matters essential to salvation.
Do they b*****y.
If they are all correct, who are we to believe? It is of course tempting to believe the rather groovy God idea. But that risks the wrath of Fundamentalists, whom- with their Harry Potter is evil and here's why arguments- I am not in the least convinced by.

Insight: God will eliminate all those who displease/disagree with etc. How? If by killing us and sending us to hell, that system is already set up according to several accounts. Will we just become non-existant and never-have-beens? Also if he is boundless in mercy etc. won't he try to convince us first- hopefully with better evidence than there is @ the moment- rather than take the easy route?

ancient texts: we would also have to believe that some bloke hung on a tree for three days and nights and was resurrected, godlike and full of new wisdom, as... Odin.

If there was definite proof for God's existence, then there would be no faith required, which undermines God's existence.

Many religions don't need to evangelise. With Hinduism, you have to be born a Hindu, you can't become one, because of reincarnation.
Islam is an evangelical religion as far as I know, but hey, it's the quickest growing religion in the world, so it doesn't really need to try does it?
Christianity, on the other hand, has stabilised it's growth, and therefore is now attempting to kickstart some more growth.

The Heaven/Hell conundrum has always troubled me: how can a just yet Benevolent God judge what occurs for eternity from 60-80 years on Earth?
For me, good actions, with good intentions are the way to 'paradise'. Nothing is 'evil' or 'good', but a measure of both.

FwT

Don't ask me how that happened! I haven't got a clue. Back to the post.

>With Hinduism, you have to be born a Hindu, you can't become one, because of reincarnation.

You don't have to become a Hindu because it is not required unlike Islam and Judaism. There are many western Buddhists Yogins and Yogini etc. Transcendentalists, Vedantists and Friends of Vedanta.
>Islam is an evangelical religion. No evangelize means - To preach the gospel to. To convert to Christianity. - but the Islamic fundamentalists are very active.


Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)

I myself a christian am actually very annoyed at the fact that people ar yelling in the streets of the apocalypse or second coming all over uk (for all I use it as the butt of many jokes)I am an australian and a member of the australian uniting church and have been part of several congregations and often visit other churches for special cervices and have never heard anyone yelling about us all going to hell if we dont grovel for forgiveness infact if anyone is yelling it is to say that our sins have already been forgiven and so therefor any "pagans" can do what they like and they still get gods mercy. Some one before said that that would include people like axe murderers and so therefor they dont want to go but my argument is that everyone has a reason for doing things a murderer might kill his wife because he found he cheating or some other reason in heaven there is no reason and therefor no crime
-you lose this argument
Just thought I would advertise seeing as no one seems to have noticed

Ps- Say what you like god still loves you and so I do too!

that link didnt work its just advertising but check it out to see if your interested http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/F19585?thread=207739 ps- dont just reply for the hell of it I want people who are interested but dont let that turn you off if you like the idea

Well, it's Sunday morning, I've had breakfast, and there's time and to spare for a long, incoherent ramble.
As someone has already said this thread seems to have bifurcated into two; one discussion on the nature of reality, and one, if less clearly, on the basis of ethical discourse. Now, technically, God, fact or fiction? seems to be closer to the first of these, as one's philosophical commitments on this subject will decide not so much whether you answer yes or no, but whether you think any real question has actually been asked. But even this part of the thread has had a fairly constant subtext on the validity of Authority in both the intellectual and moral spheres (the capital A is delibarate; we're not talking here about being guided by the opinion of experts in a particular field, but about Authority, a priori correctness by diktat).
Philosophically we are talking here not about the content of material and moral truth, but about the criterion for deciding whether something is true; ie not about what the truth is, but what is Truth.
And this is the origin of the rather strange divide that I mentioned in an earlier post.
For those who accept the Authority of a religious text as final arbiter, be it the Bible or the Koran or some other, the meaning of the word 'truth' is - whatever is written in my chosen text. The question 'what is actually the case in the world?' is simply irrelevant. So also is the question 'why that text rather than some other?' The text is it's own Authority for it's own Authority. Truth is not only Absolute it is also Arbitrary.
A similar state of affairs exists for moral discourse. If you believe that being good is by definition 'doing what god tells you' then the word good loses it's moral content. The claim 'god is good' becomes 'god does what god tells him'. Ethics becomes 'unquestioning submission to an arbitrary Authority,' not the mature exercise of moral judgement in the context of an ongoing human moral discourse.
I am not advocating an intellectual or moral free for all; what counts is the social nature of the constructs involved, which are the product of a long struggle for internal and external consistency in our discourses. There's a way to go yet, but progress is not made by abandoning our achievements to date.

Noggin

Morning Noggin (or good afternoon here in Wales).

Spot-on post there.

I'm glad that others see the bifurcation in the debate and look forward to more on both aspect of the subject.

For me the answer to the question "God; fact, or fiction" has to be Fiction. If God were a fact then, as previously noted, faith would be superfluous.
It must be said that the fiction has been a particularly successful one for all religions and belief systems that include a deity.

I am an Atheist simply because the evidence so far presented in favour of a God does not convince me in any way.

I do have faith in science and mans ability to discover the working of the universe in both the Micro and Macro realms.

I also favour the Anthropic principle from a purely scientific perspective. There has to be a grain of truth in the assertion that, were the 6 fundamental constants of the Universe not pretty precicely set as they are, we would not be here to observe, measure and quantify them and all the consequences of them.

Faith of any kind should not stand in the way of intellectual and moral discourse. Once this occurs, debate becomes impossible.

turvy

What, another Welshman? That makes at least three of us on this thread. Actually, I think four, if Matholwch's name is anything to go by. Small world, isn't it?

Noggin

Matholwch is from a village half way between Barmouth and Dolgellau but lives in London.

Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)

Post 298:


According to my dictionary, to be complicit is to be an accomplice (that is, someone who helps) in a criminal act. How did God help either of these events to happen?


Who says there were other people? Who says there were women there?


It only applies to innocent people. This much is obvious from the fact that the law code included capital punishment. God had determined that the people of those nations were far from innocent.


What gives you the idea that only the Israelites were descended from Eve? Which I assume is what you're saying, because you haven't made your point very clear.

Post 300:


intelligible: adj. able to be understood
The way you say it, you suggest that a concepts being unintelligible means it must be wrong.
But then, science in general is unintelligible, since as far as I know there exists not a man who understands the entire field. But you can PARTIALLY understand it. And in the same way, we can all PARTIALLY understand God.


Just clarify this, please. Do you mean in the same sense that Earth is finite, but still unbounded because you never come to the end? Or is there some other meaning?


But probabilities can be determined from theory as well as sampling. You don't need a sample to find out your chance of winning the lottery, do you?


The second law of thermodynamics, I seem to remember. Jordan assures me that this law has been disproven anyway, though I cannot imagine how. But assuming that it is correct, then since entropy means "lack of pattern or organization; disorder", and even the relatively simple evolution of the universe required a disordered explosion turning into orderly systems of planets, star-systems, galaxies, clusters and so on, you must explain how these two concepts complement each other.

Post 301:

<'I have found it necessary to dent knowledge in order to make room for faith'. Immanuel Kant>
But you know what they say:
Immanuel Kant
was a real piss-pant
who was very rarely stable.
(Heidegger, Heidegger
was a boozy beggar
who could drink you under the table)

Posts 303:

What do you mean, won't he try to convince you? He's created the universe, which one would think would be enough. But not settling at that, He's performed incredible acts over the millenia, and ensured that they were all recorded, and that the records survived all the attempts to destroy them. Among those records, he has included prophecies and their fulfillments, and the last thing Jesus did in the book of Matthew was command those who knew these things to go telling everybody, and I bet you yourself have been contacted. Doesn't it occur to you that he IS trying to convince you?
Yes, he could prove himself yet again. But some are willing to believe, and some aren't. Those who are can find plenty of evidence in existence, life, the Bible and historical accounts. Those who don't aren't going to, however much proof they are given.

Post 304:


Why does it?

Posts 303,304:




Hell is not a Biblical teaching. The words some Bibles translate to 'hell' are the Hebrew she'ohl' and its Greek equivalent hai'des, which refer to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge'en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction, since ge'en·na was the name of a burning rubbish dump (used as an incinerator for medically dangerous things such as the clothes of lepers) outside Jerusalem.
Revelation 20:15 refers to people being hurled into a 'lake of fire', but this cannot be literal because the previous verse refers to death and Hades also being hurled there, which is impossible if taken literally.
Jesus told an illustration that involved a person going to a fiery place after he died, but this story cannot be literal either, because it would imply that
Also the Bible tells that Jesus went to hell: Acts 2:25-27, King James Version: "David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, doesn't it?)
Jeremiah 7:31: "They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into God's heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)
But if the teaching does not come from the Bible, then from where does it come? Let me quote a book, rather than trying to paraphrase this:
"In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the "nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.-La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389."
An Etruscan, by the way, is 'a member of an ancient people of Etruria in central Italy whose civilization greatly influenced the Romans'


Post 307:

I know you didn't actually say this was your view, but if it is, be careful not to do as did the 'ungodly men' in Jude verse 4:
"My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct"

Post 310:


Not really. I might tell you I read a book yesterday. If I did, but I have not yet proven it to you, then it is a fact, but you still need faith in me if you are to believe it.

Hello Ignorance: (I'm sorry, I just can't keep calling you "Insight", you don't deserve the name)

"How did God help either of these events to happen?"

By failing to prevent it, as is blatantly obvious.

"Who says there were other people? Who says there were women there?"

Oh, who could say such a thing? How about your GOD? In his divinely inspired Word, the Bible, Genesis, Chapter 4, verses 16 and 17.

"Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived"

Self proclaimed Bible expert in complete ignorance non-shock! Read all about it! Or better still, don't bother, because he's too lazy and ignorant to check his facts, even the ones on subjects he claims to be an expert in!

"God had determined that the people of those nations were far from innocent."

Do I really need to comment on the concept of an entire race or nation of men, women and children being judged unfit to live? Can you say "Nazi"? Or "genocide"? Or "Holocaust"?

"science in general is unintelligible"

Speak for yourself, genius. It's very very obvious YOU don't understand it. Don't presume to consider the rest of us as stupid as you.

"But probabilities can be determined from theory as well as sampling."

Two points: first, you know NOTHING about probability theory. Second, a theory tends to be based on observation, and there's only one Universe to observe. Any assumptions you make about others will be untestable and therefore worthless.

"The second law of thermodynamics, ... Jordan assures me that this law has been disproven anyway, though I cannot imagine how."

Your limited imagination notwithstanding, let me assure that the second law of thermodynamics has most definitely NOT been disproven. Try not to just blindly believe everything other Christians tell you. It makes you look like a credulous moron who can't be bothered to open his eyes and check his facts.

"you must explain how these two concepts complement each other."

This concept has been explained to you ad nauseam by me and others, Ignorance, and you refuse point blank to take it in. If you don't understand it, GO AND READ A BOOK. Or use that terribly slow internet connection of yours to do some research on what "entropy" is and how it works. Ask a teacher, or an engineer, or a scientist. NOT a Christian, preferably. I'm not going to explain it to you again, as I fear I'm wasting my time.

"prophecies and their fulfillments"

Genesis 2:17. God prophesies that "of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." He eats.

Genesis 5:5 - "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died"

Difficult to see how much wronger a prophesy can be.

It's becoming a little repetitive having to point your lies and mistakes, Ignorance. Please try to be a little more accurate and honest.

H.

That is the trouble with such proof, no? those who accept it as such need no convincing, and those whom you try to convince with it will never accept it as such. Must be frustrating.

By several accounts- I meant by this the accounts of those Fundamentalists I have spoken to, who believe in such as me being judged and sent to lake of fire etc. These same people tell me that they are absolutely right, and so are all Christians since they only differ superficially, not on matters essential to salvation.
Yet others do not accept the idea of hell, nor that I am going to it. Hence confusion.

Dear Whoknowsyou?
you were so good at going off your head using names that could obviously offend I thought I dgiv you a nickname to see how you like it please try to be calm in future or else I might get scared

while reading "How much more wrong can a prophesy be?" the thought crossed my mind of maybe he was originally immortal like god and so lack of the knowledge of good and evil was his only difference to god? then wouldn't ACTUALLY MORTALITY for him and all animals below him be EXACTLY what the prophesy said and anyway if he is god I thing he deserves to bluff if he wants to plus you have the mercy factor why dont YOU read a book because according to my bible he was on the verge of destroying them but showed mercy and let them live.

-Alondar(lets see you warp this nickname)

ps - say what you like god still loves you so I do too

Just a point what has this got to do with the existance of god this debate has degenerated into moral war and unless were all going to memorise the old and most of the new testament then we will continually yelling at each other for not doing our homework

and also with the prophesy thing you have to remember; everyones a rookie at some time.

Would there be a problem in us accepting our differences, as a good thing? So long as no-one tries to tell me their belief is right and mine is wrong, I am quite happy for us to all be different.

Yes, I have had a go at Christians in the past, but having been physically assulted and on another occasion chased out of a restaurant, is it surprising. I am frustrated at living in a Christian Country, as I think we should honour our pagan past...

BUT, I have met some nice Christians, I even met one who believed in the Goddess.

So Vive le difference, it is what stops the world from being boring.

what exactly is the pagan faith, I'm not trying to be insulting, I just don't know :-S

A few have gotten close to this and stated it then degenerated into either quoting or name calling.

As a Christian I say the answer is neither. God is Faith. We can not prove God. The Bible is not proof, was not meant to be proof. The bible is the story of God's attempt to pull humanity back from the brink of self destruction. Actually the THEORY of evolution says we will eventually destroy ourselves as have all other groups which became populous and top of the food chain. I often think "GOD" chose the Hebrew people because of their excessive tribal "gene" which would lead to self destruction even faster. He has repeatedly pulled humanity back from this destruction through those who listen. Right now I think our ecological direction is pretty scarey, even scarier than the atomic threat that I grew up under. Thanks to a U.S. President who got himself elected via the court in the palm of his brother's hand we as a country look like selfish fools intent on have, have, have and to H---L with the world. I am frequently ashamed of how we look to the rest of the world especially when some of those who claim to be Christian show no respect or love for God's creation except Humanity. And only the parts of humanity that share their belief system. Sad thing is I think God gave us free will and has regreted it every since, but free will is free will. You can't take it back even if you are God. It was meant to resolve itself with the end of this earth as we know it. An Astroid collision (nature) or a cataclysmic ecological failure (man made) or a cataclysmic war (man made). I expect man made will beat nature by centuries. I still choose Christianity because if you study what it offers it offers the most spiritually positive route. Of course some fundamentalist will narrow it's scope and some reactionarys will widen it beyond what makes sense. I don't judge other's religion or lack of it, I accept it. I share what my experience is if you are interested. I have not memorized the bible, maybe in retirement I'll try that. But then which version is the right version? Hmmmm? I like the golden rule, I like Christ's saying "What you do to the least of these, you do to me", I like his warning about, "Judge not that ye be not judged".

My daughter teaches at The Indian(Native American)Community School in Milwaukee. They have Cultural Teachers that teach their students traditional beliefs along with regular school subjects. They believe God put their people here in Wisconsin many eons back. My daughter is a Christian and does not feel any need to argue about this non Christian non evolutionary concept because the God she learned about is not threatened by our limited vision. If these children can gain respect for their people and life so be it. Let them develop a healthy self esteem by saying God put them here. It won't hurt since their tradition says the Earth is to be loved and respected like a mother.

Our Western culture today has many problems. Excessive time with no purpose in life other than self gratification is probably the most damaging. Not just sex, but consumer mentality. "If is feels good, do it", is not really an ecologically or theologically sound principle.

I have enjoyed all the facinating ideas I have read and re read in these posts. I find some challenging, some shallow, some childish, but they are all interesting.