h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Jez

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Here is one of the passages I was referring to, this one from the prophet Jeremiah, 7:31: 'And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.'

It doesn't look like propaganda here. Jeremiah is accusing his own people, the Kingdom of Judah, of sacrificing children to Baal (as he clarifies elsewhere) in the place outside Jerusalem that was later known as Gehenna. Because of this and other misdeeds, he continues, the land will be turned to rubble. A few years later the Babylonians destroyed the city.

I don't know how specific your question is. Are you saying that child sacrifice never happened, that it is a vicious lie on all occasions, etc., or are you only saying that there is no archaeological proof in a particular case?

Hi Andrew

"I don't know how specific your question is. Are you saying that child sacrifice never happened, that it is a vicious lie on all occasions, etc., or are you only saying that there is no archaeological proof in a particular case?"

In the cases that Jez mentioned the accusations have since been found to have been false. They have about as much validity as all the thoughtless whining I hear from fellow pagans about 'The Burning Times'.

Anyhoo if we want to banter about Child Murder for God we only have to look at the OT account of the slaughter of the Midianites...

Ho hum...

Blessings,
Matholwch .

Well, yes Math, and touche! I can't get the accent to work...

I was responding to Jez on child sacrifice - through burning, as I recall. The examples in post 26575 that have been found to be false are not from the Old Testament. I doubt that Jeremiah was ill informed about what was going on in Jerusalem. There are other references in his book, and also elsewhere, e.g. in the book of Kings. It isn't propaganda in these cases.

Hi Math

I waited 13 hours since your posting to prove that I'm not superstitious.

Well, perhaps I was mistaken about Doreen's book. Why not try: 'Amazing love', by Corrie ten Boom. Now that's one verified woman of God.

Thanks for the information about witchcraft, it was very informative and interesting. I hope from your comment 'Ignorance is the cause of most hatred' that you've not detected any ill will in my posting towards people who are witches. Evidently you have experienced ill will from christians on this subject before. On behalf of us all, I ask your forgiveness for failing to pass on the good news of Christ with the grace and mercy that is appropriate.

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wow, that's aaaancient, man.

Yes the bible condemns witchcraft. But God's judgement is always mixed with mercy. An illustration...
A friend of mine recently took his kids to South Africa for a holiday. When they visited a particularly dangerous area, he strictly told them not to stick close to him. One of them disobeyed and wandered off and couldn't understand why daddy got so very, very cross! Perhaps this human story can help us to understand a divine principle here. (Yeah I know I told you you couldn't do this but what the heck!)

'The Pharisees asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick. But go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."' Matthew 9:11-13

When we christians fail to act in mercy, we are failing our Lord, for we are called to be imitators of him. Corrie ten Boom's life (see recommended reading above) was very christlike and well worth reading about.

See ya'

mikey2

I came across a couple of books by Corrie ten Bloom while cataloguing books in a school library. (It was an amalgamation of two schools, one of which had been run by nuns.) Didn't read them, though.

(Has anyone seen /ten/ as a nominal particle anywhere else? Did I just invent the term /nominal particle/?)



Given that the word /witchcraft/ has umpteen definitions, how do we know that the witchcraft the Bible condems is the same as any talked of today?



"He strictly told them not to stick close to him."

I imagine this started as one sentence and ended as another!





"Forces more ancient than your God."

What Matholwch means by this I do not know. He seems to feel that the Christian God is a real entity, but that it/he is not actually as powerful as it/he claims to be. I certainly don't claim to understand Math's personal theology.

For what it's worth, though, I'd like to ask you, mich2ael, what you think Math's gods are? Delusions? Demons? Deceptions of the Devil? Are Hindu gods also deceptions? What about Islam? Or modern Judaism? Or varient forms of Christianity?

Just curious.

TRiG.

TRiG

The Corrie ten Boom books are well worth reading. God was obviously a living reality in her life.

<<"He strictly told them not to stick close to him.">>

Silly me, one too many 'not's here!

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To be honest, TRiG, I've not discussed Math's gods with him although they do sound fascinating. I would not wish to cause offence to people by telling them that their gods are delusions...however...Jesus christ said: 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me' John 14:6 My experience of God leads me to believe that here in Jesus alone is real eternal life...something worth having...something that is based on historical fact (the life and work of Jesus). I do believe that there is false and dangerous spirituality, just as there are false and dangerous humans! You would be foolish to believe everything everyone told you.

I hope I have skirted around the foothills of your question sufficiently to postpone the necessity of offending millions of people with one sentence.

Varient forms of christianity...lots of it is good, lots of it is suspect. I've got to dash to work now...I'll catch up with you soon.


mikey2

Hi mikey2

"Yes the bible condemns witchcraft. But God's judgement is always mixed with mercy."

So what do you make of that famous passage in Exodus: "22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"?

To be honest there is considerable scholarly debate over this one. Especially as the actual term 'witch' didn't actually appear until the King James version.

Of course this was commissioned and overseen by the same King who had written 'Demonology' in 1597 which was considered the witch-hunters' handbook, and who incited the common hysteria about witches in the 17th century.

Of course you have no ill will towards witches, which is why you promoted a controversial book about the evils of modern witchcraft . I simply put you straight mate. If I hadn't maybe you would have continued in ignorance and treated any witch you came across with at least suspicion if not outright intolerance.

Anyway, why does your God condemn 'witchcraft' so strongly? After all He's more than happy to have His puppets wander about performing all manner of magic tricks. Perhaps he didn't want any competition for the populace's credulity...?

As for Corrie ten Boom, yes she was an amazing woman, but have you ever considered that her christianity may not have been the sole source of her courage? Maybe it was also her common humanity? After all there were thousands of Europeans who risked everything to save others from the Nazi's, and not all of them were christians.

I wonder what your God will make of that unrepentent sinner, adulterer, womanizer and unreformed capitalist Oskar Schindler when he appears before the Book of Life on Judgement Day? Short shrift I should imagine.

My point about the Gods of Britain pre-dating yours is based on the simple fact that they were being revered here way, way before yours even drove His followers out of Egypt. Cripes, there are structures even in the British landscape that pre-date the generally accepted (by Creationists) date of creation, at around 4,004 BC, never mind in the near east and further afield.

Are you one of these ignoramuses or do you somehow manage to accomodate the scientific facts that the earth is more like 4.5 billion years old?

Blessings,
Matholwch .

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Your usual charming self, I see.

Here's another lively and interesting thread that you have sabotaged.

I think you should read some of the backlog to this thread, Kel, before jumping in feet first.

I'm inclined to doubt that you yourself think creationists are *not* ignoramuses.

Noggin

Thanks for the advice, Nog.

I have done.

The thing that that struck me was the consistently polite and reasonable way in which some people behaved while others are consistently rude and insufferable.

See if you can tell which are which....

And Nog, not to put too fine a point on it, but what I think (which is something you have absolutely not the first inkling of)is hardly what's at issue.

Hi Kel

How nice of you to drop by. perhaps you'd like to browse the backlog to this thread, perhaps the last 22,000 posts that I have been involved with before blowing your prejudice all over the shop huh?

You might also wish to ask mikey2 and Andrew, our resident christians with whom I have been having a lively and respectful debate, if they are insulted?

Or do you just wish to drag your beef with me up and down the highways and byways of h2g2 to no good purpose?

I do love the patronising way you attempted to put down dear Noggin though. I cannot think of a nicer and more reasonable chap for you to unnecessarily insult. But it is in your nature it seems...

Blessings,
Matholwch .

Any chance of some links to the other threads you've sabotaged? It's Monday morning, I could do with a laugh!

Hi eloisa

Take your pick

Bad, bad me, daring to disagree with the kindly rationalists, after all I've got imaginary friends so I am obviously (in Kel's words) lazy and stupid.

Blessings,
Matholwch - dumber than dumb

S'ok. At 14 I was told by a very rational person that my ankh was a bastardisation of the christian cross and therefore I was going to hell! I realised his grasp of history was so poor I really couldn't trust anyting he said!

Hi Eloisa

Of course the interesting thing is that the Israelites may have got the idea for their montheistic faith from the Egyptians, and in particular the cult of the Aten which flourished under the Pharoah Ankenaten (Egyptologists feel free to correct my naming & spelling), and from which the ankh symbol gained its popularity.

So christianity may have come from the Ankh and not vice versa

Blessings,
Matholwch .

Hexactly!

Hello KL'er
Math hasn't sabotaged this thread - we've *all* done it!

In that case, I apologise.

This post has been removed.

Nice to see the thread has risen from the dead again.

The Old Testament didn't specify witch, it condemned sorceresses. The translators chose witches for their own reasons.