h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Another reply to post 1. Quite a bit has happened in the meantime. But welcome to the fray, warrioremma70.

TRiG.

oh dear,how slow am i.im new 2 this age of technology...give me a pencil and paper anyday.soz

Thanks Vicky

from

mikey2

but to pick up on the point raised
"where do memories and thoughts and nightmares go? they are not 'physical'."

They most certainly are. This is evidenced by physical injuries toi the brain interupting the memory process (in all sorts of complicated ways) and altering personality and the thoughts that go with it. If mopdifying a physical structure alters these properties then these properties must have a link with the physical.

Hello Math

To answer your first points from <> to <>

You seem to interpret the bible as showing Jesus to be cruel and spiteful. Its been said that one can get the bible to say anything we like if we are determined to do so, just choosing the verses that back up our own point if view. Indeed the devil did just that when tempting Jesus Christ! When you take the Old and New Testaments as a whole, and try to understand the overall message, you discover a God who 'is love' according to the apostle John.

Two references from John's Gospel may counteract your train of thought revealed in the first half of your posting.

John 1:17 'For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.'
And as if to illustrate this verse...
John 8:2-11 'At dawn Jesus appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one , sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Math, for me, as for countless others I'm sure, this incident seems to condense the entire message of the bible: we are all sinners before a holy God, but God has loved us in Christ. This is the Gospel, the good news of the kingdom of God. Sinners getting what they don't deserve...grace and mercy. 'Whosoever believes!'

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God is to be feared......on the same token...

2Peter 3:3 'He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.'

Predestination IS an interesting thought, as you say, in that it does not negate free will and responsibility on our part.

Your next section was on tolerance, and you quoted passages referring to God's wrath. God is certainly revealed as being patient (see previous bible reference), he is certainly described as merciful ('"But I tell you, love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you that you may be sons of your father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."'Matthew 5:44-45),God certainly loves sinners like you and me ('God demonstrates his own love for us in this: it was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us.' Romans5:8; 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.' John3:16)
Yes, the God of the bible is also uncompromisingly holy, i.e. totally set apart from sinners, but I don't think intolerant is a correct adjective to use to describe God (Not unfairly intolerant anyway)

Your final warning from the book of Revelation!
I don't think my own translation was so liberal as to render it deceptive or misleading!

Tell me you're not going to get cross again, Math. I got worried last time that you'd find out where I live and come round and criticize my curtains...and I'm not sure I can handle that kind of rejection.



mikey2

Hello warrioremma70

Picking up on the thought that we might be mire than just a physical being, I read this interesting quote recently from George Carey's book, "The Great God Robbery".

'...there are many who entreat us to be content with our lot as nothing but nature's offspring. "You can do nothing to alter what already is", they scold us. "Enjoy what you have got and do not hanker after the unattainable. Mortal you are - make the most of it." But how inadequate such advice is because the one thing we cannot be is content with this world. Why is it that of all creatures, only humankind find this restless urge to reach beyond ourselves? We do not feel at home in this world. It offers much but its best delights are tarnished with impermanence and disappointment. The history of humanity is a biography of our search for fulfillment. Hope projects humanity forward in a never-ending quest for self-discovery in art, music, scientific discovery and, perhaps most revealingly of all, in a diverse religious search. There in a search for the eternal we stand revealed as spiritual beings reaching out to understand and to be understood.'

Nice one, George.

mikey2

Hi mikey2

"You seem to interpret the bible as showing Jesus to be cruel and spiteful."

I have not interpreted the Bible at all, just pointed out a few things it says itself. We know nothing of what the man Jesus actually said, only what people said he said.

My key point was that the OT laws were reaffirmed by Jesus. He didn't choose to deny them or revise them, he said his father's laws stood.

"God is to be feared".

Yes the Bible is peppered with references to the requirement to fear your God. Doesn't even that give you pause for thought? Why does an omnipotent creator need our fear? Adoration I can understand, but fear?

"...he is certainly described as merciful..."

I could take us on a long and boring tour of the times this God got all wrathful and didn't show a jot of mercy, in fact he seem to take his wrath to extreme levels. I'll just say - have a look at the fate of the Amakelites and their children unto the umpteenth generation.

If intolerant is not an adjective what is the word you would you for a deity that chose who he was going to save before the world was begun, and then let us live our lives in the hope of salvation? By his words the majority of us will spend eternity in the lake of fire because we either didn't hear about him or didn't believe in him when we did.

I think intolerant is a merciful description.

And don't worry about me getting cross, I love this stuff

Blessings,
Matholwch .

Hello Matholwch

I hope you are well today.

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Is there a bible verse that says God NEEDS our fear. Is fear (or respect and awe) not a sensible attitude to adopt towards one's creator?

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Let's not eh?

These Amalekites, do you know what sort of people they were? I've found the reference where the Lord swears to 'blot the memory of Amalek from under heaven'. Exodus 17:14, but have not come across the reason yet!

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Yes I can see your point Math, it certainly seems unfair when you put it like that.
I'm going to carry on clinging on to him though, in the hope that he will be faithful to his promise to save those who believe in the One he sent. And I'll continue to try to understand him as best I can. If I come up with anything convincing that might answer some of your understandable grievances, I'll let you know a.s.a.p.

Doing anything nice this weekend?

mikey2

Hi mikey 2

Being any tribe in the Jews way was really bad luck in the days of Moses. For example:

Samuel
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel [ Math's little note: refused to let the jews past and God cursed them for umpteen generations], how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. [Which they did, except Saul became merciful and let some live for which he lost his kingship].

Also under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins -- Wow! [Numbers 31, 1-54].

Nice guy this God of yours.

"Is there a bible verse that says God NEEDS our fear."

Well if there isn't I am wondering why ther are literally dozens of references to your need to fear him in OT and NT. Here are just a few examples:

OT
Leviticus
25:17 Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God:for I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy
4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Joshua
4:24 That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.

And in the NT:
Luke
1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Ephesians
5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Peter
2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

If he does not need it why does he demand it? Why does a supposedly loving and merciful God require our fear? Doesn't wash mate. This is a vengeful and spiteful deity who will never have my adoration for his own inspired history shows him to be a petty and vicious, genocidal tyrant.

"I'm going to carry on clinging on to him though, in the hope that he will be faithful to his promise to save those who believe in the One he sent."

Ah, the "I'm alright Jack" attitude of the Christian conscience. And how about all those he did not choose before the foundation of the world? How can you stomach that he would have them burn in eternity for his pleasure?

Some time ago a group of us here formed the Sulphur Outfall No4 gang. We promised to spend eternity holding innocent babies up out of the flames for you to look upon from your lofty paradise.

Think on.

Blessings,
Matholwch .

So are you saying that you do believe there is a place called hell and that you're destined to go there?

m2

I have to agree with Math, mich2ael...

There are plenty of places in the bible where the faithful are enjoined to fear their god, and I cannot think, off-hand, of any where the injunction is to simply hld him in respect and awe.

I respect my gods. I also love them, and invite them to my parties. And offer beer and whisky, mead and good wines, as appropriate, the same as you share wine with your god. But I do not fear them, and I never have, not even those who are demonised by Christianity, such as Loki and the Horned One.

Why do /you/ think your god requires you to fear him, rather than respect him?

Because if I was required by my religion to fear my gods, I could not also respect them.

--

Jez

The Christian afterworld is only named 'hell' in Germanic languages. And it is named by that name in order to make sure that the heathens around the Germanic language speaking Christians conflated their afterworld, the bright and wonderful realm of Hel, the Lady who greets the traveller with a long draught from the Horn filled with healing Water drawn from the Well of Life, after the nine day journey along one of the eight-fold paths, with the invented Christian idea of Hell, a place of torment for the damned who rejected their god or their god's commands.

In other languages, such as Hebrew, you will not find that name.

Yes, I am hoping to go to Her realm. It is, after all, where my kin are, and where those I love are, and where the halls of my ancestors are situated.

--

Jez

mmmm...interesting view.However I work with brain injured people on a daily basis; many parts of their brain are damaged for good; I have first hand experience on the fact,even though they could be massively brain damaged,the memories,dreams and nightmares still exist....I do believe that no matter the severity of damage,that will always exist. desperately hope so, anyway. does anyone really die? and no, I don't believe in God,

Matholwch

Well, you've certainly got me with the OT quotes...yes its impossible for me to argue that these events portray God as a 'nice guy'. Even though some of these tribes had 'detestable practices' such as burning their children in the fire as sacrifices to their demon-gods, it certainly seems a bit strict to obliterate them from the face of the earth!

We look to Jesus again to obtain insight into the word 'fear' which occupies most of the remainder of your posting. Luke 12:5-7 '"I tell you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body but after that can do no more. But I will tell you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes I tell you, fear him. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed the very hairs of your head are numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."'
Here Jesus tells we are to fear God but, almost in the same breath, to 'be not afraid' because of your worth in God's sight.
I'm sure you're also familiar with the parable of the prodigal son, which is too long to quote here but may be found in Luke 15:11-32. In it Jesus shows us the father-heart of God towards every sinner who has strayed from his loving presence.

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It wasn't meant to come across like that, Math (perhaps you realised). My sentence rather meant that in the light of all the evidence I have, I am going to believe this Gospel. Imagine an individual refusing to be rescued from a burning building by a rescuer who's risked his life to get in there..that's ingratitude.

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On the surface this sounds like a noble decision of you all. But 'be sure that the light within you is not darkness' Remember that the devil is described by Jesus as 'a liar, and the father of lies', whose job on earth is 'to steal, kill and destroy.'
I mentally understand the points you've made and was quite shocked by your conclusions, thinking that my faith had been undermined. They do sound convincing. But, on reflection, they give me a very uneasy feeling. It is difficult to put it into words. Your conclusions don't sit comfortably with my experience of God and my understanding of the message of his kingdom. You sound like one deceived...you've been offered salvation and forgiveness and unconditional love, but your perception of this amazing gift is as though someone were attacking you.

Math, though I respect your noble sentiments, I would counsel you to come to your senses and repent of this madness. Making a pact with others, vowing to spend eternity in hell??? Be aware that there is a devil out to lie and steal and destroy. Make sure the light within you is not darkness.

<< Think on.>>

I am. So should you.

With kind regards as always,

mike2

Mich2ael

Sacrifices of children?

I would be very surprised to find that you have evidence - and I mean archaeological evidence - for those practices.

Even quite good historical references are suspect when it comes to propaganda - take the example of the Roman political commentators talking about Carthage - the tale of immolation of children was told there in order to horrify the general population, and when the early archaeology was done in Carthage, certain things found were interpreted as poof of this story - but the latest evidence shows that the existence of the child cemeteries in Carthage seem more likely to show that these babies were simply buried separately, probably for some religious reason, and that child mortality was no higher than in any other contemporary culture.

Baby-eating is a common charge, even after the OT times, for demonising your enemies. The Christians made the charge against Jews, african nations, pagan cultures around the world, as a justification for their actions in destroying those cultures. Christians took children from Aboriginal cultures in living memory, not sayng they would eat them, but certainly assuming that they had the right to demonise the culture of the parents and twist the law to suit that purpose.

I would like to see you either point to any evidence outside the bible that baby-burning was practised, or say that there is at least the possibilty (I don't expect more) that the people who wrote that part of the bible were mistaken or ill-informed.

Because as far as I know, the only baby-burning which is (or at least was for many centuries) supported by evidence from Christianity is that of infants dying unbaptised...

--

Jez

Oh, and by the way - calling another religion's gods 'demon-gods' doesn't do much for your earlier case that Christianity can be a tolerant religion...

--

Jez

Hi mikey2

"Well, you've certainly got me with the OT quotes..."

Not my intention I can assure you. I find it endlessly curious that people who do not understand their own dogma would seek to proselytise me. This is why I fence with the christians here. Andrew understood that some time ago and recognised that we could wrestle into eternity, so we made an unwritten truce.

The problem with a document like the Bible or the Qu'ran, which is set in stone at a particular point in history, and is claimed to be 'the whole truth' is that it quickly loses its context and within a few generations it has become a mostly meaningless set of unquestioned dogma.

"My sentence rather meant that in the light of all the evidence I have, I am going to believe this Gospel."

Then this actually confuses me. You have in your hands one of the most self-contradictory documents in history, and I think you realise I could lead you up hill and down dale with examples of biblical errancy (it's a hobby), yet you choose to believe it anyway.

I can only conclude that you have had no real experience of anything else, be it paganism, buddhism or humanism. It's like those who refuse to consider the horrors that Tesco's causes in the Third World to obtain those unbelievably cheap prices and still shop there as they have never heard of the Co-op.

"Imagine an individual refusing to be rescued from a burning building by a rescuer who's risked his life to get in there..that's ingratitude."

Ah an analogy. Ok I'll run with it. Imagine an individual who is living in a building and someone comes to their door to rescue them claiming the building is on fire. The 'rescuer' cannot provide any evidence that the building is on fire, there is no smell of burning, no smoke, so fire trucks, no fleeing occupants. All the 'rescuer' has is a fire prevention booklet warning of the hazards of fire.

Would it be ungrateful, after due consideration, perhaps even looking at the booklet and having a quick look around the building to shut the door in the 'rescuers' face and ring the police?

"On the surface this sounds like a noble decision of you all. But 'be sure that the light within you is not darkness' Remember that the devil is described by Jesus as 'a liar, and the father of lies', whose job on earth is 'to steal, kill and destroy.'"

And we're onto the devil huh? If you can't frighten me with an imagined apocalypse out comes the Bible's bogeyman ti undermine my beliefs...oooh

Why does your God allow the devil to exist? If man is made in the image of God why does your God need a tempter? If we fail then that means that God is also fallible...oops!?

I have no wish to undermine your faith, I really do not care if you are christian or not. If your faith is at all shakey that is because you already have doubts. I have just given you an opportunity to peek out from under the duvet. If you don't like what you see you can just blame me, consider me a pawn of the devil, and go back to your comfortable blindness. I have broad shoulders.

"Your conclusions don't sit comfortably with my experience of God and my understanding of the message of his kingdom."

Perhaps you should read the Bible again and look at the uncomfortable passages - and as you do think how would a non-Christian interpret this? The message you have received from your priest or minister is the soft sell, read all the bits that they do not include in their weekly sermons. If you are going to commit your life to a single deity, read all he has to say before you do.

"You sound like one deceived...you've been offered salvation and forgiveness and unconditional love, but your perception of this amazing gift is as though someone were attacking you."

No, I have threatened with eternal damnation if I don't beg for forgiveness. There is no in-between with christianity, I am either saved or damned.

"Math, though I respect your noble sentiments, I would counsel you to come to your senses and repent of this madness."

Thank you for your kind words, but I am not the one walking blindly into eternity. If it makes you more comnfortable to think of me as deceived or mad, then please carry on and pay me no mind as I scream in the lake of fire for eternity because I am human and fallible.

"Making a pact with others, vowing to spend eternity in hell??? Be aware that there is a devil out to lie and steal and destroy. Make sure the light within you is not darkness."

What devil?

Blessings,
Matholwch .

Hello Math and Mik2ey. We could fence for ever, but I think Mik2ey is right here. In the case of the Old Testament, let's not forget that Jesus created a new foundation, which we call the New Testament (aka Covenant). The twelve apostles replace the twelve tribes, the Law of Moses is made more interior, and all this is very explicit in both the Sermon on the Mount, during the Last Supper, and on several other occasions. So the Old Testament quotations belong to an earlier stage in the history of God's dealings with his people.

In the case of the New Testament, these quotations are practically all taken out of context: St Paul just does not read like that, neither does the New Testament. St Paul warns the fledgling Christian commununites to beware of dissenters, but these are people calling themselves Christians, not druids or pagans, which they mixed with all the time.

On child sacrifice, it was certainly practised in the near East. The Old Testament prophets are very blunt about this, accusing *their own people* of practising it, just like their neighbours, and that is one reason why (they say) they will be taken into exile.

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The question of whether atheism is a "faith" position is a football that's been kicked around a fair bit on this and other threads without ever being resolved to everyone's satisfaction (surprise, surprise!), at least in part because it depends on how we use language to categorise things.

It is true that the construction of any chain of reasoning requires a starting point that is simply "given", and an acceptance that there are *rules* of reasoning that allow us to arrive at true conclusions, given true premises. These givens cannot be *proved* to be true, and could therefore be argued to be matters of faith. But believing in a God who is in some way "outside" these rules, and not bound by them, leaves us with nothing. Atheism is therefore a necessary position for knowing anything (for a rather relative value of "know"), and I personally would not regard it as faith, but I recognise that one can cut the semantic cake in other ways.

Noggin

Hello everyone mikey2 here,

Hi Noggin

Yes of course there are two points of view here; lets agree to disagree!

Hi Jez

At the moment Matholwch and are sticking mainly to theological 'discussions' around bible themes/texts/doctrines. So my referring to the practices of the worshippers of the god Molech were biblical in origin rather than archeological. (And refer to AndrewS's recent post.)

The term 'demon-gods' I thought best suited the point I was making; however, I apologize if my word choice was insensitive or offensive.

Matholwch

Yes it is a bit like fencing here, now you come to mention it. I find whether I make a joke, a disarmingly honest self-revelation, or just put my point across straightforwardly to you, it seems to come back misinterpreted and turned into an assault.
You can be infuriating at times.

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'Dogma'? Merely speaking up for a point of view which has been much sidelined in our society. 'Proselytizing'? I set out to defend a point of view, not to proselytize.

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Lets not dig this up again.

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Not another wild goose chase, please.

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To be fair Math, you started it. Considering the subject matter you introduced, I had no option. Anyway, I wasn't trying to frighten you: 'The pleasantness of one's friend springs from his earnest counsel.'

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I considered posting here a nice comment about how honest christians may often struggle with doubts from time to time...maybe not!

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Thank you, I'm not too proud to take advice....?

<<Why does your God allow the devil to exist?

That's deep. In a very real sense the devil's days are numbered thanks to the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

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An unusual loaded question which seems to assume that God needs a tempter!!

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No begging necessary, just believe the good news and call on the name of the Lord.

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??????????

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You know your bible, Math.

Math, though I've really come to.......em.......tolerate you a lot over these few weeks.........I wonder whether we ought to have a trial separation!! Seriously though, I like you but we're never going to agree on anything, so lets call it a day? We can even say you won if you like.

Loads of tolerance from

mike2y