h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Happy New Year to you too Andrew!

The mysterious case of the Archbishop of Warsaw seems to be raising a few eyebrows. It's almost like a spy novel.

it is probable or at the very least highly likely you should be set in alabaster

All quiet on the Warchau front?

I'm relieved he did the right thing in the end and stood down. I don't think such a past means one can't be a bishop (assuming that, as he says, he did no harm), but if he wasn't open about it, the appointment was a bad idea. If you are in that sort of position you really have to declare it before you are forced to.

Did he jump or was he pushed? They said on the news "the Pope applied the emergency brakes at the last minute".

It could be so. He would agree to step down if the Pope asked him to.

A simple case of Papal infallability? So why did Ratzinger make the appointment in the first place?

Papal infallibility is limited to ex cathedra statements on faith and morals, and certain other teachings when promulgated by the Pope with the bishops, e.g. certain solemnly proclaimed documents from general councils. It has never been extended to appointments of bishops.

Hi Andrew

Papal Infallibility is one of the concepts that makes Catholicism absurd, for it makes any ex cathedra statement on faith and morals into doctrine. Thus saddling the Church with the statement for all time.

This is why the Church is tippy-toeing around the previous Pope's pronouncements on the use and effectiveness of condoms in preventing the spread of various venereal diseases such as AIDs. If they don't do something soon many more millions of Catholics will die horribly and unnecessarily. The Church could be fatally wounded in every third world country and effectively cease to exist in a few.

The Church lied. It knows it lied. And the old Pope's advisors, including Cardinal Ratzinger, compounded this lie by letting their senile commander-in-chief repeat the lie. This is the definition of evil.

Oops! I'd think it funny if people weren't suffering and dying.

Blessings,
Matholwch .

Math, er, that's not correct - unusually for you, I must say. If you want to find out what Papal statements throughout history have been declared 'ex cathedra' you only have to google them. There are two in total - perhaps three, actually, but one is disputed.

If you want to know about documents solemnly promulgated in church councils, again the great Google is at your disposal. No such council has pronounced on AIDs or condoms.

There was an encyclical some years after the Second Vatican Council on contraception ('Humanae Vitae'), but that does not fall into either of the above categories, and is not infallible.

So, if you really want to discuss infallibility, you can easily find out what the infallible declarations are and set to work on them.

The above doesn't rule out the possibility that some teachings might make the Church look absurd, including (for the sake of argument) non-infallible pronouncements on AIDs and condoms; but let's not confuse issues. Mere authority isn't infallibility. Perhaps you just wanted to make a point about Papal authority. It's hard to tell though.

To get you off to a start, the use of Papal infallibility that always sticks in my head is the annunciation of Mary - the Virgin Mary's body ascended to heaven and was reunited with her spirit.

Since the doctrine is itself a 19th century invention, I expect this was just them flexing their muscles and trying to establish precedent.

It sticks in my mind because its just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Still, I'd think of more concern for Catholics would be the recent decision that Purgatory isn't real. Looks kind of like taking out the bottom of a house of cards to me. What use is praying for a dead person's soul now? What happens to someone who dies without making full confession and performing penitence? What happens with indulgences?

I guess the way round that is to work out whether the statement saying that a particular statement is ex cathedra is in itself an ex cathedra statement or not.

There are a lot of doctrines to keep track of, I know, but all the same... On the last point first, it's Limbo that has been called into question, not Purgatory. Indulgences and praying for the souls of the deceased are still very much 'in'. Nothing is 'out'.

You are relatively right about the Virgin Mary's ascent into Heaven, except that it is called the Assumption (the Annunciation is different), and it was not a 19th century invention.

There are lots of paintings of the assumption - e.g. El Greco, Botticini, Titian, Rubens. There is (or was, when I saw it in 1985) an Anglo-Saxon amulet in Lewes museum with a carving described as a depiction of the assumption.

All the Pope did with his infallible statement was solemnly proclaim it as definitely part of the Catholic faith. In the Orthodox Church, which separated from the Catholic Church in the 11th century, it is known as the Dormitian.

Dumb isn't the word.

Luckily (providentially?) the definition of 'ex cathedra' comes from the First Vatican Council, and thus meets the criteria.

Andrew,
I don't mean to be obtuse but you say the Pope is infallible only some of the time. If he's infallible that means in plain English that it's all of the time doesn't it?
And therefore I come back to the point that he appointed the Archbishop of Poland and then a couple of hours before the ceremony changed his mind therefore proving that his original decision was wrong and therefore that he is not infallible.

"and it was not a 19th century invention."

Sorry, I wasn't clearly. Papal infallibility is the recent doctrine, not the Assumpion (sorry about that mix up too).

Considering how long Christians have spent trying to tell everyone that heaven isn't a physical place with dimension or material or stuff, yet the Catholic Church is absolutely definite that there's someone's corpse in there, I'd say dumb is definitely the word.

Can you explain the difference between Limbo and Purgatory?

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Sorry, couldn't resist. I seem to remember that the pope isn't infallible as such, just on certain pronouncements which are, erm, flagged up as such.


(still a load of bullocks though)

catholics havevaring levels of after life.

limbo is where unbaptised souls go.

purgatory is the level kind of between heaven and hell.

that is very much a catholic idea not a christian one.

please be careful. even though we have the same God and bible there is alot more tradition in the catholic church which has no basis in the bible.

many christians dont agree with the catholic teachings

Thank you, Lucky.
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The property of "all of the time" is not intrinsic to infallibility if it is limited to part of the time. The authoritative source on ecclesiastical infallibility explicitly sets limits: it is only doctrines of faith and morals, and facts so intimately connected with these as to require infallible determination, that fall under tbe scope of infallible ecclesiastical teaching.

A good source on the whole topic is the entry in the 1910(!) Catholic Encyclopedia. See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

Scope is dealt with near the end of the entry. It's an authoritative source, so it's not just my interpretation.

Hello Bouncy - sorry for misunderstanding your ambiguity! I also slipped: the 19th century doctrine defined as infallible was the Immaculate Conception. The Assumption is another, but it was defined in the 20th century, in 1950.

As regards the antecedents of infallibility, sources in Scripture and the early church writers, see the entry on infallibility I referenced above. It's not just an invention pulled out of nothing.